     Shylock (Shylock) | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 03:11 pm 
Christine claims that a FICO score of 608 would automatically make me a poor risk for a rental property. Maybe she's right, maybe she's not.
If she *is* right, then absolutely a smart landlord would be right to charge me more. However the scoring algorithm would be substantially different, needing to include the information found on an unlawful detainer report. Typically eviction reports do not show up on a person's credit report.
Additionally a new credit repository would need to be created incorporating the experience of landlords. Various apartment associations already offer this option, but the only option you have of reporting is negative information. Things like, "Left owing money" would be supplemented by options of "Stayed 14 months. No serious damages."
It would be simplistic to assume that FICO scores and good rental scores would automatically coincide.
An additional advantage would be that a repository could be created that services one state. The Fair Credit Reporting Act wouldn't apply to such a credit repository, effectively eliminating the ability of people to view their own records, challenge the information and otherwise run a company's costs up to unbearable amounts. |
| Christine Baker (Admin) | Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 04:26 pm
Christine claims that a FICO score of 608 would automatically make me a poor risk for a rental property.
This is absolutely NOT true.
Do NOT do that again.
I asked you whether YOU would be a high risk tenant in February with a 608 score, when your score was 49 points lower than only 2 months earlier.
I asked you whether YOU would rent to yourself.
You did NOT answer that.
I don't claim, I KNOW that credit scoring does not work. YOUR scores are just MORE proof.
You know how to type, so I assume you can punch the numbers on a phone. Why don't you call to VERIFY the last 5 or 10 rental references on the application?
Rentals are a tough biz, it takes quite a few skills and selfconfidence.
Why don't you stop whining (as you like to say) for that rental score and take an underwriting class? |
| douglas pratt (Dougpratt) | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 08:20 am
my middle score went from 653 to 641 for no reason i can figure out, and i haven't been able to get a conventional mortgage for almost 2 years now. cendant approved me for one recently because they have an investor who looks at credit profile and not computer hackware.
shylock-- your score is lower than mine. try getting a sears card with a $500 credit limit with scores like that and see what happens. you might even have problmes renting a car. is suppose you will still believe FICO is fair until it bites you in the ass like an enraged pitbull-
i'll make sure to charge you an extra $100 a month if you rent an apartment from me, though if you have good credit, references, and means to pay the rent i won't look at your credit scores. my company doesn't even subscribe to unFair isaac services-- the credit reports i evalute come through without any scores-- |
| Shylock (Shylock) | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 04:40 pm
My score was 608 at the beginning of the month (on a 4th) so a good portion of the score loss could be due to the drop scores receive as information is outdated (see Christine's FICO is FRAUD section).
Also my scores may be unusually depressed due to a credit card reported lost/stolen that still shows $4,800 owing out of $5,000 limit. It also shows the same information as an open account on my credit profile ($4,800 out of $5,000). Dispute letters went out a week ago.
Would I rent to myself at the lowest prices around? No. I'd look at myself and I'd think I was a high risk of filing bankruptcy and that I moved too often and would be a high risk of vacancy.
That's the difference between me and you. I can look at myself and say, "I'm a poor credit risk. I'd insist upon 20+% interest rate from myself."
The rest of y'all seem to think that you're fantastic credit risks somehow screwed by FICO scores. Bullcrap.
Anyway everyone in the rental business knows that calling references, especially the current landlord is worthless. The current landlord may well tell you what a FANTASTIC tenant the applicant is for no other reason than to get rid of him. |
| douglas pratt (Dougpratt) | Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 09:35 pm
i have been a rental broker for 12 years. i know about present landlords telling sweet stories to get rid of a bad tenant. that's why we interview every applicant seeking to start a new tenancy, and on occasion i may even call in higher powers for a second opinion. in all cases, the owner of a property has an opportunity to meet prespective tenants before leases are signed. do you know of a computer model that can conduct interviews and make educated decisions, if not perfectly logical ones like FICO is supposed to do, shylock?
your credit scores know nothing about any stolen credit cards, disputes [no matter how valid], or anything other that what the computer was told to consider when it was programmed. don't explain-- FICO won't listen. live in a homeless shelter or out of your car because a federal mandate forbids anyone who knows you well or might take exception to your specific situation from listening. they know and understand, but your mystery score isn't good enough to be treated like a person-- hilter did likewise to all highly decorated generals and their families who served their country in WWI if they bore a jewish name-- what right does anyone have now that this new order has replaced dignity and respect?? 680 is aryans-- thrive and prosper; 679 is kikes-- die and burn. is THIS the mode of THINKING you favor, shylock? this is what happens in the real world of PEOPLE when they stop doing their own THINKING and let someone or something else do it for them.
see you as fellow gassee, shylock-- neither of us meet model specification. today it's our property rights, tomorrow it's our human rights. does the word "fair" in the name of the company judging me and deceiving you sound like something is amiss? are you aware of the fact that hitler's largest concentration camp, auschwitz/birkenau complex, had the words "arbeit macht frei" [work sets one free] posted over the entry in bold letters, when all who entered were prescribed to be murdered?
i'm not suggesting that basic rights accorded to all under the US constitution might be subrogated to the extent it was to german citizens as hitler came to power--- FICO does represent a definitive step in that direction, and fannie mae, freddie mac, and congress have all given their blessings. i do not have the right to the demand specifics of how my substandard numerical credit scores, in a format where even as a harvard graduate i might understand it and adjust my use of credit in such a way as to have computer models evaluate me as an acceptable credit risk, or even seek competent third party consultation. no outside party could ever qualify as competent, because the basis for evaluation is kept state secret. in nazi germany, any property owner could be marched outside, shot in the head, and disposed of; this is how hitler routinely stole real property from his countrymen without due process, regardless of who held legal title, citizen or not. this practise was endorsed under government sanction, and record of rightful ownership was routinely falsified to conceal this type of theft. believing that aggression and hate can lead to victory, hitler deceived followers of his cause into believing that permanent records of ownership of what he stole would never come to light, or face contention.
hate and FICO never have to explain themselves to those who suffer. them's the rules-- people make this kind of stupidity, and people break it when they're up to it. a real reason will make itself known to anyone willing to listen-- a sad excuse will pass as truth to everyone refusing to THINK before listening, and goes un-noticed for a long, sorry time before SOMEBODY wakes up and decides to DO something about it. what a DISGRACE---**
"evil is what happens when good people decide to do nothing about it."
stage 1-- machine modelling of human people-*
hoping it could never happen again here-- the US Constitution is something i never doubted. FICO hammers one chip out of the granite foundation of truth.
what's next?-- need i ask?, or be afraid???
FLUSH FICO--- it is a revolting abomination upon the american dream, and the ideals of those who put human dignity over mindless machinery into words over two centuries ago--- **
care to step up to the guillotine and ask for a fair trial, shylock? if the machine gets stuck somewhere between top and bottom, you must have scored well**
bonne nuit mes amis---** |
| Shylock (Shylock) | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 05:03 am
Douglas:
You ask if I know of a scoring model that can do as well as a human in terms of evaluating a rental applicant. No I do not, that is why I recommend that one be built.
From there you go descend into a complicated sophistry that tries to make FICO scores into Hitler's 3rd reich... chipping away at property rights everywhere.
Apparently in your lust for a jihad against scoring you're quite willing to call black white and white black.
You complain that you can't get a loan at rates you prefer. Tell me, who owns the money you hope to borrow? Don't the owners have property rights to the money they own, including the right to loan or not loan it at rates they deem favorable and to persons they deem good risks? Yes, they do.
Your philosophy seems to be that in the name of property rights the fascist power of government should be brought to bear against lenders to compel them to lend to you at terms that you consider acceptable. Apparently you see nothing wrong with authorizing the people's agents, the police, to use armed force to compel other people to lend you money at rates they would not freely offer you of their own accord.
In a world where millions of women have had abortions on demand because it's "their body, their choice" but lenders can't charge what they want because it's "their money not their choice."
Yet the baby is accorded no choice about its grim execution, while the borrowers are always free NOT to borrow money. |
| douglas pratt (Dougpratt) | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 02:00 pm
i draw an analogy to the 3rd reich because what happened in germany at that period in history was largely the result of attempting to force a model of the perfect person on the society-- it went as far as it did when people stopped thinking for themselves; let somebody else, or machines do it.
FICO is doing the same thing to the real estate lending industry, and its modality of thought, or lack thereof, has taken away my right to fair and equitable treatment. it does indeed seek to paint everyhing black and white, at the expense of all the other colors of the rainbow. hitler wanted to make the world a human ant farm, and see what he accomplished.
the backing of secondary mortgage market products does not come from the initial lender-- it comes through investors who buy notes secured by real estate, and a bank's role is simply intermediary. portfolio lenders are those who use their own resources, and who are free to loan as they see fit. FICO has been sold to the government, and imposed upon this industry- it is blind, so don't expect it to do anything other than what it has been told to do.
i have been judged, and i am not allowed to know why. there is no legal recourse for redress, and no course of action is prescribed to correct the problem. bankers and loan originators tell me it is a sham-- you can't explain to a computer that you intend to eliminate all your consumer debt by refinancing the property you just renovated-- the model has no provision for understanding. neither do people when they choose to stop thinking.
the fascist power of government shouldn't oppress anyone or deny them their rights; hitler was able to brainwash his followers with false promise and lies into non-thinking, mechanical hate machines.
if anyone being judged as substandard could know why, they would then have the choice to modify their behavior and finances to conformity. paying bills on time as agreed is not my idea of what a substandard borrower does, and i have no history of late payments, charge-offs, or problems with creditors whatsoever. the basis for a substandard evaluation is 100% FICO-- a number this quackware spits out of the computer has taken the place of bankers and underwriters. it is the sole reason for my inability to refinance my properties, and i have this in writing from several lenders.
a borrower doesn't have to borrow, and a hungry person doesn't have to eat. artists don't have to paint, and musicians don't have to play. nobody has to think for themselves, though those who do usually go alot further in life than those who don't, unless xombotism is imposed from powers that be in high places, such as reichstaggs and the bowels of a machine to which this simplest of tasks has been delegated.
think about it, then go apply for a mortgage--
goodnight again-- this is becoming an exercise in futility--* |
| Christine Baker (Admin) | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 05:27 pm
Shylock wrote:
My score was 608 at the beginning of the month (on a 4th) so a good portion of the score loss could be due to the drop scores receive as information is outdated (see Christine's FICO is FRAUD section).
Also my scores may be unusually depressed due to a credit card reported lost/stolen that still shows $4,800 owing out of $5,000 limit. It also shows the same information as an open account on my credit profile ($4,800 out of $5,000). Dispute letters went out a week ago.
Would I rent to myself at the lowest prices around? No. I'd look at myself and I'd think I was a high risk of filing bankruptcy and that I moved too often and would be a high risk of vacancy.
That's the difference between me and you. I can look at myself and say, "I'm a poor credit risk. I'd insist upon 20+% interest rate from myself."
This proves again that credit scores are NOT predicting, but CAUSING defaults.
Shylock thinks that his score is lower because the scores were obtained at the beginning of the month and because of INCORRECT reporting.
Shylock is convinced that he needs to be punished for getting his credit score on the WRONG DATE and for creditors reporting INCORRECT data.
It blows my mind. If it wasn't Shylock, I'd think it's a joke.
I'm extremely busy and I've got nothing more to say. |
| douglas pratt (Dougpratt) | Friday, March 09, 2001 - 08:47 pm
one of my tenants, also a very good friend, came into my office today. he and his wife want to buy their condo unit from me, and i agreed to sell it to them for a price about 10% under market value. this one is tying up about $100,000 of my equity, and i have no desire to hang on to it.
i ran his credit off my computer, using all three bureaus. his grade was B- to my mind, and i would ask him for a security deposit as johnny blowhere off the street if i didn't know him; that's what i did when he leased the unit from me last summer.
his rent is $2,350/mo.
next was a visit to our in-house mortgage broker, who ran his credit using FICO. the computer gave him a middle score of 559, 100 points lower than how i score, with flawless credit. "hopeless" is the word my office FICO-bound lender had to say, putting it in terms to minimize his embarrassment and shame. my friend had some 30-60 day lates, no charge-offs, and one bad account already settled. he earns $220,000 a year, and fell behind because his company went into bankruptcy late last fall. i would be willing to take back paper to make his deal work-- sorry, the quackware forbids it.
tell you what, shylock--- FICO would have you in a homeless shelter with wife and kids, regardless of your income, references, or credentials- check into a hotel and pay $180 a night for two beds, a throne and a television-- that's what it's doing to me. i'm living at home only because of what i make holding a comparably high-end position. care to piss away $1000 a week??-- how long would you last??-- i'm pushing 2 years now because of FICO. i don't walk into stores and buy whatever i want, because the ridiculous interest FICO obliges me to pay has to come first. i do eat, and make the payments, and never fall behind.
if i wanted to fulfill UNfair isaac's self-defeat prophecies about ME, i would max out my consumer debt and become the model ant they already expect me to be--- hit 'em with chapter 13, and go on to bigger and brighter cages. chapter 7 might do the job just as well if i didn't have far too much in illiquid assets, all of which would be given away by a bankruptcy trustee; while i can still afford to make required payments on my outstanding debt, this is where most of my income is now going. my elderly wife retired in 1995- should i ask her to go back to work?? she supported me years ago when i went to harvard-- now she asks me where is the money going? i tell her the truth-- interest. i tell her the truth- a pack of quacks who sold the fed on the idea that a computer program can serve borrowers and lenders "fairly" by generating some number pretending to accurately represent risk of borrower default, when nobody is allowed to know how the damn thing works, and can't get a person on the other end of the phone to explain it, what to do about it, or how to get around it when it doesn't work.
will be nice to shake your hand as we walk to the gas chamber together, shylock. i'll introduce you to my wife, too. Zyklon-B, hydrogen cyanide, ends it all in 5 minutes. those little things you see flying overhead before the doors slam shut are children-- maybe some of them are yours. pleasant to ponder as you asphyxiate. listen to hitler's mindless little killbots cheering outside as your life, hopes, and dreams fade into oblivion--**
this blew my mind when i studied it. if it wasn't documented history, i might believe it was some cruel joke, too.
truth is, it wasn't. this happened when an entire nation was deceived into acting like machines-- its instigators targeted thinkers first, and were in fact enemies of anyone who might challenge its authority, based upon use of the mind over abuses of political power. be an ant and live-- thinking as a humam was punishable by death.
never should property rights be enforceable by violence. never should violence usurp property rights. in a lawful and just society, this goes without saying.
sadly enough, no such example is known in modern times, and i'm not here to deabte ancient history or draw references from eastern scriputes dating back before 4000 B.C., e.g. ramayana-- suffice it to say, waging war has been accepted as a viable means of settling disputes among governments, and the advent of nuclear weapons is the only reason why modern man is now obliged to reconsider this modality of thinking.
maybe it's time for everyone to think and put the world back together again---
goodnight all---* |
| Shylock (Shylock) | Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 04:01 pm
Christine:
FICO scores don't punish anyone. They accurately predict the percentage of people in a given group that will become seriously delinquent in the future.
Douglas says, "care to piss away $1000 a week??-- how long would you last??"
Yet he's happy to sell his property at 10% below the fair market value.
And he thinks that a guy with a settled collection, numerous 30 day and 60 day lates is a B- risk. Absurd!! |
