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     | Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 03:36 pm  I received this today from E-loans emailing list for credit scoring issues: "March 13, 2001 The issue of consumer credit score disclosure has shifted considerably during the past few months. Under considerable pressure from consumer groups and pending legislation, the three credit bureaus (Trans Union, Experian and Equifax) appear to have resigned themselves to the fact that they will eventually be required to release credit scores directly to consumers. Even Fair, Isaac, the company that supplies the FICO scores used for most credit decisions, has decided to release its credit scores after opposing these disclosures vigorously for the past year. The main inspiration for this change of heart has been a recently passed California law requiring that consumers be given access to their credit scores. This law goes into effect on July 1st, and rather than tailor a separate process for California borrowers the credit score providers will be offering credit scores to consumers nationwide. By midsummer, each of the credit bureaus will make credit scores readily available to consumers via their websites. To their credit, Fair, Isaac and Equifax have partnered to provide an Equifax credit report that includes both the FICO score and an explanation of the factors that comprise that score. Their target for release is by the end of March. Trans Union and Experian, on the other hand, each plan to develop their own score solely for purpose of consumer disclosure. This solution has met with a tepid reaction from consumer groups, because it will not provide consumers with access to the FICO scores that are used for the majority of credit decisions. Still, both Trans Union and Experian will provide the detailed explanations that they believe will most benefit consumers trying to understand their credit status. After their long-standing resistance to credit score disclosure, it is odd to see the credit bureaus and Fair, Isaac portraying themselves as pro-consumer now that legislation has forced their hand. It is particularly incongruous given the loud objections when E-LOAN began to offering free credit score access to consumers early last year. And because each of these credit-scoring options will come with a yet-to-be-determined cost to the consumer, they fall short of the free access that many consumer groups advocate. That being said, the fact that consumers will finally be given full access to their credit scores is undeniably a step in the right direction." Sounds to me like they are trying to get cute with the California law...
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| | Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 03:54 pm Unbelievable! I don't want the Experian and TU scores, I could NOT care less! Hopefully somebody will sue them all.
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| | Tuesday, March 13, 2001 - 08:55 pm having had access to actual credit scores as they appear on my borrower profile for over two years now hasn't been very helpful. since nobody knows how the numbers are generated, or what they might be able to do to improve them, having the numbers in hand is relatively useless. i'm well connected to the finest bankers & underwriters in the real estate industry, and they are all telling me the same thing. a lengthy discussion yesterday with my legal staff was equally disheartening-- powers that be in very high places have bought into this thing, and even if i could garner fullest support from my $7 Billion employer, we would be standing against an adversary of at least equal strength-- alone, i am likened unto a worm-- money talks and humanity walks. at $300 an hour, my boston attorneys are the best money can buy. i have had damn well enough of the FICOfuC, and can still count on my fingers of one hand the number of times i have brought them into one place at the same time for consultation. they are among the most knowledgeable and powerful in the nation, and can extend their influence around the world. there likely does exist a strong fiduciary bond between the fed as we speak of it [fannie mae and freddie mac] and UN fair isaac. stepping outside realms of what most of us comprehend in ordinary business terms, we now enter a world where greed reigns-- KALIYUGA. assessing "Fair, Isaac" as an independent entity, we find that even at its current level of success and acceptance in the world financial community, it remains a company with a total net worth of no more than $2 billion. this is comparatively small in global terms- if my employer's survivablity in this world were directly threatened by actions of "Fair, Isaac," it would fight back. at this level, rightful legal principle prevails in most cases. unfortunately, instances where the truth is challenged require it to be defined anew from a neutral vantagepoint. proponents can draw upon past precedent, and so can the correspondent opponents. issues at hand are irrelevant; lawyers advocate positions clients pay them to support-- my legal staff evaluates all possible arguements, for and against, and then advise me. a room full of brilliant minds understands quackwarye perhaps all too well--  *(*-- FICO scoring maintains a place within present day political structure. it is protected from above, by powers even my employer cannot explain or hope to challenge. my connections extend very high and very far above, in ways i can't even mention in a forum such as this. we are talking players in the TRILLIONS of dollars under control, and i am the worm whining from down below-- one false step out of place squishes me. screaming as loud as i can, nobody but shylock has even heard me complain, or yelled an obnoxious "shut up!" from next door. bringing this situation to attention of congress is what i was advised to do, so i am passing this message along. sorry i can't be more hopeful; i'm in no position to confront this country's role in worldwide corporate greed without subjecting both me and my elderly wife to homelessness. one thing will never change, and until the US constitution is overwritten by more quackware, the truth stands for itself and can still be spoken:-- FICO SUCKS!!!-- ******* UP YOURS, UNFAIR isaac!!--  **
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| | Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 01:57 am Christine -- One other thing to keep in mind: *Which* scores has Fico agreed to disclose from Equifax -- classic or NextGen? I think Fico's planning to only disclose classic scores to consumers, while out of the other side of their mouth pushing the credit industry to move to NextGen. I'd like to be shown wrong. However, you've got to admit something like this fits Fico's modus operandi.
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| | Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 05:48 am Zeddicus, I think you're right. I think the consumers will get the "classic" scores, and lenders will use the NextGen scores. And most consumers won't realize that FI is still circumventing the law. shulamite
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| | Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 10:16 am If the CRAs are in the business of selling credit scores then any score they sell needs to be disclosed to the consumer. The idea of Trans Union and Experian actually developing a new score for no other pursose than to give to consumers is a little bit funny to me. It's just a stall tactic. I hope they get the hell sued out of them for it.
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| | Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 02:47 pm T - Minus sixteen days and counting..... Foot-dragging Fair, Isaac has what amounts to a committment of releasing FICO's THIS MONTH as promised on myfico.com. Have that sucker bookmarked and if its April Fools (lol) Day and you can't raze your scores, you can raise hell.
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| | Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 03:05 pm ...and Zeddicus hits bang on my point I made over a month ago about classic/vs./nextJunk scores.... In concurrence with our real-estate tycoon douglas, he IS CORRECT when there are "higher powers" governing the winds of the high-finance territory. In a book on Canadian (and worldwide) banking written by Walter Stewart, titled "Bank Heist", he touched on some very important world history and current world bankers' secret meetings which ensure the propagation of the high-finance agenda on a GLOBAL level. With modern-day globalization, the arguments presented that they are all pervasive and negative for ordinary consumers, in my mind, are very valid and deserving of careful consideration. Many a meeting of bankers (especially the last decade or so) are held in places like Basel, Switzerland. Why the heck Basel? The detailed history of this is astounding, and I feel this is worth recounting, because it offers insight at the very top levels which Douglas is referring to. In fact, I think I'll start this dissertation in a separate topic, because it involves much extensive history on Basel, the Federal Reserve, etc. and is a well-researched and articled piece by Walter.
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| | Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 05:54 pm Since the above-mentioned work is quite detailed, I'll link you a place where you can read an overview, selected excerpts and my comments in a separate window. First, I'll need to mention that Bank Heist is © 1997 by Walter Stewart, ISBN 0-00-255442-9, published by Harper Collins. Personally, I own a copy of this book (and I DON'T own very many books) and I very highly recommend purchasing it for the really detailed historical insight into banking (and hence, credit) as I referred to in my previous post. Walter Stewart is a bestselling author and veteran investigative journalist whose books and articles consistently stir up controversy. He has published nineteen books, including Belly Up: The Spoils Of Bankruptcy and The Charity Game. His earlier book on Canadian banks, Towers Of Gold, Feet Of Clay was on the bestseller lists for over a year and sold over 70,000 copies. Here is the link
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| | Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 10:10 pm if i were to perform as the FICO machine has cast me, i would run up my credit cards to the max, get all assets out of my name, and pop a good ol' chapter 7 or chapter 13 and be through with it. anyone looking at my credit profile will see that this is not my style, nor is it my intention. by no means am i a tycoon- as a property owner, i am relatively small. FICO categorizes me unfairly, and because i am self-employed, no human banker or underwriter can look at my actual history and present financial position and make a decision to loan me money on my property, because the credit score makes my notes unsaleable on the secondary markets. those who have seen it told me i am not a high risk, and this thing is shafting me hard and mercilessly. cendant mortgage has approved me for a 70% LTV product that is about half a point higher than the best rates out there, which isn't bad-- we'll see if it's for real when it closes. their commitment letter makes specific mention of my middle credit score of 641, indicating that i could subsequently be denied if it falls, though they assure me their human staff does have more overall input, and given the sheer number of real estate loan investors out there, this is unlikely to happen-- i already paid for an appraisal with wells fargo who also said don't worry, then sent me a rejection citing FICO as the specific cause, along with an offering of their portfolio product at 10.125% with one point. a pay less than that on many of my credit cards. proposed bankruptcy refrom legislation now before congress ties in directly with FICO, as i believe and have expressed here many times that i see the computer models approving college kids with a $10 an hour job and 10% of daddy's money for enormous loans-- our in-house mortgage specialist tells me that these applicants would never have qualified for such amounts via traditional underwriting-- FICO spits out one approval after another-- drive through commitment letters. the economy isn't so sweet right now, and as credit scoring has total free reign over this industry, i predice that the incidence to default is going to balloon upward-- how fast and how much remain only to be seen. the nation's economic stability could be threatened in a big way in a worst case scenarion, and even at best, investors seeing their yields drop and suddenly going into distressed property landlord business. computer models use mathematically based algorithms, and i daresay math as a science is centuries ahead of marketplace and behavioral prediction, yet this is just what FICO attempts to do, and fannie & freddie have bought into it wholesale (they probably have massive holdings of UN fair isaac's stock and sweetheart deals, too). if a computer model could give me a good pick for stock, $50 to run the software just once would be money well invested. so far, there seems to be no interest on their part to develop any programs to tell people what to do on wall street, and i tend to think there's alot more money to be made there than by trying to predict who is going to default on their home loans. i'm still open to the idea of a class action to take this thing on, but to proceed i would need ALOT of support, mainly members-- fellow victims of FICO. i have been advised that i can calculate the amount of time i spend working on the problem in with my actual monetary damages; with this, it is well over $100,000 over the past 2 years, and climbing. that is more than enough to serve as an ideal model for the class, and to warrant action in federal court. my legal people won't take this on contingency, though they could make a referral if i garner enough support, or 1000 people could each chip in just a few dollars an hour, and the case could go forward at their normal fee-based rates ($200-$400/hour). the chance of success is another thing to consider-- their opinion is that it is fairly small, though with each addition to the plaintiff class, that likelhood increases all the more. how many bodies to we need for this??-- they suggest a minimum of hundreds, and the more the merrier. nobody wants to throw good money after bad, and for now they recommend the direct approach to congress. professional lobbying gets very expensive too, so initially writing letters and/or phone/fax/email is a good place to start. we do have to bear in mind that these folks are inondated with this type of material daily-- the best time to approach is not while in session. my wife did some campaign work for jfk and has met our democratic senator ted kennedy-- i don't take any official political position, and do wish one day a great candidate for president worth voting for will run for election-- lol- *-- that's another can of worms, one better left closed for the moment. i applaude christine for maintaining this forum, and all her support-- * night for now--- more - **
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| | Friday, March 16, 2001 - 06:20 pm Having your score isn't helpful. Even having the reasons you didn't score better isn't particularly helpful. Comments like "Amount owed on accounts" and "Number of revolving accounts" are not about to point you in the right direction. Pay on time. Pay your debts down. Ensure all information on your credit is accurate. Open no new accounts. And after 20 years you'll have a perfect score.
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| | Friday, March 16, 2001 - 08:26 pm That guy who was applying for a mortgage and just barely missed the cutoff score a couple weeks ago I'm sure wouldn't have minded knowing what his score was without having to use the inquiries. The formula is what consumers really need but I guess they'll just have to figure that out. In a year we'll know the formula because it will have been reverse engineered. Can't do that without the scores.
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| | Friday, March 16, 2001 - 11:03 pm how about trashin' repairin' some'n' never broke, stop fix'n and t'will all work well again ask o'puter to think that, dream o'nessie bonnie lass--- ** dram'buie toast to vic'try
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| | Friday, March 16, 2001 - 11:05 pm frigg your bankruptcy meanwhiles-- **
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| | Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 04:37 am Let's also note that the guy who missed the mortgage score a few weeks ago was also steadily running up more credit card debt, thus increasing his risk in the eyes of the lender.
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| | Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 09:17 pm yes, at 4% interest all being used to renovate the properties. you can tell that to a banker, not to a computer model. UNfair isaac didn't tell it how to listen-- *. they also left out equity positions and LTV. fico still sucks-- **
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| | Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 04:09 am I doubt he was running up credit card debt to renovate properties.
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| | Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 09:32 am you doubt wrong, shylock. when and if this gets into court, i will show all the documentation.
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| | Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 02:23 pm I seriously doubt you have documentation on the person Erik referred to in his post.
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| | Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 07:44 pm that's true-- i was making reference to myself, and thought that was also what you were doing. thanks--
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| | Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 08:02 pm as it is, nearly all of my consumer debt has gone into renovating my properties. erik's post didn't indicate specifically who this is, though i might tend to believe it is somebody who uses this type of credit in much the same way i do. my lenders have been giving me my FICO scores for almost 4 years each time they run my credit, and it has never done any good. you can be damn sure that (UN)fair isaac has no concern for consumers, though they might like it to look that way. the day they start working in the best interest of the consumer will be the day the knights of the ku klux klan start making big, warm-hearted cash donations to the simon wiesenthal center. fico still sucks tonight, too-- *
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