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Learning more from divorce than repossession?

BayHouse Credit Forum: Credit Q & A: Disputes - Collections - Chargeoffs - Bankruptcy - CCCS: Credit and DATING: Learning more from divorce than repossession?
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voigtkampff

Tuesday, January 11, 2000 - 06:34 am Click here to edit this post
Christine, I'm stunned. And I was not prepared with a topic, but here is a quick one.

I've been told that it counts as real points against me that I have not been divorced yet. There actually seems to be a perception that at my age I should be married OR have been divorced AT LEAST once. Or else something is wrong with me. No joke. And I don't think that this is just a South Florida perception. What happened to the old-fashioned values that marriage is forever?

I joked recently with another attorney, a divorce attorney (and they are usually cynical about marriage), that we should marry and divorce the same day just to increase our marketability.

Why is it that our past relationship mistakes are viewed by some or many as positive learning experiences that increase our "scores" or "dating rating", but our past credit mistakes do not?

I really think that for most people who get into credit trouble, it was a learning experience of tremendous value. Most people can only learn empirically and not vicariously through others. A child who is told not to stick their hand in the fire does not appreciate the risks as much as the child who actually got burned. No, the point is not to take lit cigarettes to your children. The point is that the people who really know about the risks of credit and the need for responsibility, are the people with past blemishes, BUT who have been R1s for the last few years. FICO, which apprently attempts to predict human nature, should account for that.

Whoops. Christine, I screwed up. When I was discussing credit, I went off topic into dating. Now that I'm on dating, guess where I went. Maybe they are inevitably, unavoidably connected. Joking.

Back to dating, the more experienced, intelligent men do not want to date women who are too much younger, no matter what you women think. I had a friend (who will not learn!!) go on a date with a woman (I mean girl) who had never heard of Billy Joel!! Get out of the car! No matter how hot you are, nothing excuses that. "Where was I when Kennedy was shot? Who's Kennedy?" Women are genetically born with an awareness and appreciation for older men with life experience and maturity. Except for Cher. It's been true since high school.

But isn't it too much if someone loses eligibility points because they DON'T have kids, a stalker-restraing order, or a divorce under their belt?

OK, Christine, I pulled a cerebral muscle, but I think I got it back on point.

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Christine Baker

Tuesday, January 11, 2000 - 10:54 am Click here to edit this post
I'm surprised to hear that not being divorced is bad for dating. That's really interesting. I thought is was the other way around.

Usually there's those kids you gotta deal with, monetary as well as emotionally. Who needs that?

But then of course I'm by no means "normal," don't think I've ever been on a date.

My definition of date: You spend hours preparing to look your best, go out for dinner, etc., to see if you want to have sex. Or get married maybe eventually. Some kind of agenda.

I read about Sean's experiences and all I can think is THANK GOD I never wasted my time on that. Sounds like work, and you don't even get paid and get nothing but frustration.

On the other hand, I've enjoyed many non-date beers or dinners with strangers because I find it interesting to see what others do, how they live, what their problems are, etc.

I think that's a lot more fun.

Exactly WHY do people have this fixation on getting married? It's a setup to get hurt.

And WHY do people want kids? There are 6 billion humans on this planet, 4 billion too many!

I'm afraid I'm not too helpful with dating problems :)

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Kristy Welsh

Tuesday, January 11, 2000 - 11:49 am Click here to edit this post
My Dear Mr. Voigtkampff,

What's your age? :)

In any case, your never have been married (and therefore divorced) must only be a bad sign if your date's goal is marriage, and she views it as a indication that you're not interested in marriage. But in my opinion, it could also be a sign of good taste, thoughtfulness and an indication of the willingness to wait for the "right" person.

I agree with Christine, I hate dating. It sucks, it's usually a painful experience. I actually refer to it as interviewing. But I disagree that getting married is only getting set up to be hurt. No relationship lasts forever; it's part of life to lose people you care about. Your self-esteem and other relationships should hopefully be able to see you through even the most painful loss. Most people want to have a life partner. Call it biology, but it doesn't cure the urge to bond with someone.

I'm currently in a great relationship, but I was single for many years and due to the dating scene went from "I gotta have" to "I don't want" a relationship many times. It does absolutely suck out there, but then I'm extremely picky and I'd rather be alone than in a bad relationship.

Just my two cents. Everyone is different and has different needs.

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voigtkampff

Tuesday, January 11, 2000 - 07:56 pm Click here to edit this post
Christine, its neat that you've never been on a "date". Probably shows that you never felt a need to fit in and do what everyone else did. If you've reached that level of self-actualization, good for you. I'm like the rest of the cattle who tells everyone "why be normal" and then hypocritically, subconsciously does what everyone else does (because everyone else does it) and hangs out at the meat market. No cattle pun intended.

Your definition of "date" was funny until I realized that it was sort of accurate. I can tell that you're quite the romantic. I won't be sending you any Meg Ryan DVDs for next Xmas.

As far as why never having been married or divorced is considered by some or many to be bad , I have 2 theories.

1. Maybe it is assumed that the single person (the marital consumer) is either unwanted (so something is wrong that is not immediately apparent) or is unwanting (so is too picky). Everybody probably has a certain age when they think it is normal to have been married.

2. Maybe it is assumed that the only way to get over childish, fairy tale ideas of marriage, is to have a marriage premised on those ideals to fail. Maybe a marriage veteran is more practical and knows what they WANT and what they NEED better than the marriage virgin. They realize that love doesn't matter when they sit down in the middle of the night and fall into the toilet.

As far as why we fixate and obsess on marriage. Don't know. I watch the discovery channel and the other animals don't obsess. And I think that as a result they have less neuroses and problems than we. Ever see a gnu with an ulcer? From now on I'm a bear. I'll sleep, get fat, attack joggers, and mate when the mood hits. What makes us think that we're so special that we have to have an institution that other animals don't. The discovery channel should do a special. Mating habits of the South Florida Single, homosapien neuroticus.

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voigtkampff

Tuesday, January 11, 2000 - 08:03 pm Click here to edit this post
Kristy, I'm 33. As far as willingness to wait for the right person. Perhaps, but there is definitely an element of fear. Fear of the wrong person. I did a little divorce work, and do a simple one every 3 months or so. From the bankruptcy work, I see how expensive a bad one can get. Someone came to me recently with $50,000 in attorneys fees so far.

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holly

Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 06:46 am Click here to edit this post
voightkampff-

I expected you to say you were 48 or something. 33 is hardly an age were you ought to be expected to have already been married. What a strange concept. I am 28, unmarried and won't expect people in my/our age group to have been married. In fact, most of the weddings I have gone to for friends were for mid-30's types who were getting hitched for the first time. Perhaps it's a regional thing as you suggested earlier. All that sunshine down there must be doing something strange to the state's southern inhabitants. You should come up to NYC where marriage is a dirty word reserved to describe those scary people that live in the suburbs and have to drive cars:-)

In regard to those "statistically valid" numbers that we would all be subjected to under any kind of dating report--isn't it true that your chances of divorce increase with each successive marriage? I would think being never married would increase your score. Of course no one outside the company knows the formula for the score and if I am correct, we aren't entitled to know our score anyway. Hey, dating is like credit scoring. There really is little difference. Yikes.

You sound like a really down-to-earth guy and there are plenty of down-to-earth women out there whose paths you are probably just having difficulty crossing. Perhaps its your career or the particular office you work in.

I am a computer geek and are surrounded by wonderful guys all day every day by a ratio of 5 to 1. I think if I were a teacher or a manicurist, I would probably not be presented with as many opportunities. Do you think that this is the case with you?

You mentioned that you had seen some unsavory divorces and that scared you a bit. Maybe its a combination of things.

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holly

Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 06:48 am Click here to edit this post
whoops! voigtkampff not voightkampff.

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mankwee

Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 02:16 pm Click here to edit this post
Marriage is simply a legal contract between two people. Depending on ones financial status, there is no real reason to get married. Two thousand years ago people over 30 were considered ancient. Relationships rarely lasted over 10 years. With an average lifespan of 70 years, people change and the reason for marriage becomes obsolete. A greater bond is formed when two people enhance each other's lives yet remain independently capable of supporting themselve. Otherwise one or both party will be the loser.

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voigtkampff

Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 06:55 pm Click here to edit this post
Holly, for the most part all I meet is bankrupt, people, divorcees, and attorneys. And I would rather date a serially bankrupt divorcee than an attorney. NOT a joke. So there is some truth to the environmental factors.

As far as the regional thing, most of my high school and college friends that I still know have already been divorced or have as many as 3 children. At least one is already widowed. I can't think of too many other single people. 33 does not seem that young.

I hope that you are wrong that the chances of divorce increase with each successive marriage. How is it possible that people would not learn from past mistakes? That they would not learn to stop dating bad boys, or to stop dating girls young enough to be their children? Or learn how to make a bad situation work. Learn the importance of compromise. People have to learn. Even if they fight it. To believe otherwise would be depressing.

Oh and thanks for the vote about being down to earth, but down to Venus is more accurate. Wait, men are from Mars. Now I have identity issues on top of everything else. I'm very much a non-comformist, and everyone seems so vanilla. People can't be that boring, so I assume that they are hiding their neuroses, instead of coming out of the psychological closet. I prefer openness. It's not that I am as self-actualized as I accuse Christine of being - rather I am too lazy to try to fit in.

Mankwee, too much discovery channel and not enough Meg Ryan. Seriously, what is the "reason for marriage" that becomes obsolete? As far as "geater bond", I am reluctant to even address that. That is getting into the issue of what is love. Probably would get a number of reponses and posts, but there is no answer. But while I would put it differently, I agree with the "greater bond" theory.

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Elle

Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 07:32 pm Click here to edit this post
"To be in love is merely to be in a perpetual state of anesthesia"
--H.L. Mencken

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voigtkampff

Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 07:37 pm Click here to edit this post
"Love is a pretty yellow flower. That smells bad." Spock, "Mudd's Women", Star Trek.

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Richard Smith

Saturday, January 15, 2000 - 10:42 am Click here to edit this post
Whatever it's worth-having been single until I got married at 41, there IS a lot of truth that at a certain age, if you have NOT been married, potential dating partners DO think there is something wrong with you. Its fine not to be married say until you are in your early 30's but you are considered odd if you have NOT been marrried by your mid 30's. Having been on lots of dates, I have notice women looking at me strangely when I have said that I had never been married before. I used to think that holding out for the right woman was the most important thing, but apparantely it isn't. It doesn't matter that you messed up and married the wrong person, just have a marriage (and divorce) in your dating resume. That sounds strange but its seems true. I think the reality of it is a lot of women think that if a man has not been married by a certain age-why waste my time on this guy. He's NOT going to marry me (assuming that's her dating goal) Now that I am recently divorced-I guess I can hold my head up high and feel 'normal'. But it will be a cold day in H____ before I ever get married again. As my Ex wife says, marriage is just a piece of paper-and it is other than being a legal partnership with a few extra rights over people just dating thrwon in for good measure.

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voigtkampff

Saturday, January 15, 2000 - 11:18 am Click here to edit this post
Richard, one issue is whether this is a regional thing. Are you from the southeastern United States? I personally don't see how it would regional. It's human nature, so it should be uniform in American culture. If you cross continental lines, or date someone who has only lived in the U.S. for a few years, then I suspect that divorce would be a bad thing for the dating resume.

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Christine Baker

Saturday, January 15, 2000 - 02:26 pm Click here to edit this post
I agree that the U.S. (and other highly industrialized countries) are leading in divorce rates.

Obviously, places such as Hollywood and South FL attract certain kinds of people with their own agendas.

People living in rural areas have very different values. Someone's word still counts. Deals are ratified with a handshake.

On one hand they're more willing to help, on the other hand they are ready to defend themselves and their property with a gun.

When I recently inquired about places to go prospecting without getting shot, the lady at the Alamogordo Chamber of Commerce replied:

"This is New Mexico. You can get shot anywhere."

So far I've been lucky.

There's human nature. And then there's the nature surrounding humans. Or the lack thereof.

In the cities you got people driven by credit scores and stock quotes. Everybody against everybody.

In rural areas people still depend on each other.
When it will finally rain is much more important than the DOW's record high.

I think there are MANY reasons why divorce rates are up.

The pay isn't nearly as good, but *most* divorced women can at least survive without the husband's pay check. And most States are vigilant about collecting child support.

Organized religion *used* to attach this stigma to divorce.

Since the financial and religious reasons to stay married have been mostly eliminated, people who are simply bored with each other now get divorced.

But I've also seen a lot of relationships end over financial problems. From people who get stressed out over the bill collectors calling to a rather upscale couple divorcing while building their dream mansion and running into major problems.

Life is so damn difficult, people get so frustrated. And who is there to let your frustrations out on? You can't yell at the boss. But there's the spouse and the kids.

Until they leave.

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Sean

Monday, January 17, 2000 - 07:25 am Click here to edit this post
Here's my 2 cents.

First of all if divorce increases your marketability it is most likely because your dating application is being manually underwritten by people who have little/no idea of what makes a relationship workable and probably don't have enough relationships under their belt to have developed sufficient experience. This is a bad thing, but on the other hand, I don't know of many emperical studies that have been done to determine compatibility so we're just limping along with what we have.

Secondly we should beware of divorce statistics. It is noted by many that there are twice as many marriages a year as divorces. From this fact someone has drawn the incorrect conclusion that there is a 50 percent chance of divorce. The real chance of divorce is about one in eight.

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voigtkampff

Monday, January 17, 2000 - 12:43 pm Click here to edit this post
I agree with Richard Smith. And it doesn't matter if our dating applications are underwritten by people who are clueless. I think that Sean is correct on that point. But it is irrelevant. What matters is that they are the ones doing the underwriting. As much as I disagree with some aspects of FICO credit scoring, I am forced to operate in that environment.

Dating has its environment too. I can't boycott romance any more than I can boycott credit. All I can do is try to understand human nature.

Don't we all try to understand the opposite sex JUST well enough to manipulate our dating score.

Avoid inquiries and avoid prominently displayed nudie posters. Avoid finance companies and avoid talking about exes. Avoid recent delinquency dates and avoid recently dating delinquents.

If I could be honest, and ignore the enviroment of negative associations, I could frame the nude poster of my underage ex-girlfriend.

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Kristy Welsh

Tuesday, January 18, 2000 - 08:29 am Click here to edit this post
voigtkampff:

Actually, the quote from Spock is "Logic is a field of pretty flowers that smells bad. Just so you get your Spock straight...

- a pathetic trekkie

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voigtkampff

Tuesday, January 18, 2000 - 02:08 pm Click here to edit this post
No, I'm the pathetic trekkie, and you can't take that away from me!!! Actually I really am embarrassed. If Christine (admin) was nice she would delete my horrible paraphrasing. (I only got 4 words right).

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kristy welsh

Wednesday, January 19, 2000 - 07:58 am Click here to edit this post
You get lots of points for those 4 words in any case. A lawyer trekkie...does that happen often?

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Voigtkampff

Wednesday, January 19, 2000 - 01:17 pm Click here to edit this post
Spam Trek. I don't know how far Christine(Admin) will let us go with this so I'll have to make it brief. (Then again this is relevant to the topic because it shows how trekkies flirt with each other. Wanna see my warp nacelles?) I actually have a model of the Galaxy class starship on my desk when I meet with clients. People who file bankruptcy feel embarrassed and nervous, especially since I look much younger than I really am. So it helps to create a light topic, and also to let them feel that there is someone more pitiful than themselves. That's my rationale. Actually it is Captain Riker's battleship enterprise (and not Captian Picard's heavy cruiser) that only appeared in one episode of Next Generation, so the real fun is to confuse trekkies less knowledgeable than myself. Not you of course. Do you think it would be pushing it to ask Christine for a star trek forum? (Kidding)

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Kristy Welsh

Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 05:42 am Click here to edit this post
No, let's push for a Star Trek (otherwise known as a geek) category. It's a much more fun topic than dating. You can't get much more pathetic than that last statement, other than to say I DID NOT KNOW THAT about the Galaxy class starship.

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voigtkampff

Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 07:52 am Click here to edit this post
Kristy, I really was kidding. I would not participate. I think that you're kidding too. (But the model really is cool).

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kristy welsh

Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 01:01 pm Click here to edit this post
I'm not kidding at all. I don't mind the label of trekkie (or geek). I would participate. But if no one else did, it wouldn't be much fun. :)

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Anonymous

Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 01:43 pm Click here to edit this post
I'd participate!

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Anonymous

Sunday, February 13, 2000 - 09:29 am Click here to edit this post
I live in a "rural" area, where we are supposed to lean on each other and defend our land with a smith & wesson and drink gravy and stay married forever and trust our neighboros words...... what horse****. All of america is experiencing demoralization, and even, oh my god, divorce. And us gravy eaters even wait for Mr/Mrs Right until we are "way on up" in our 30's. It is not regional... anymore. I've been betrayed by my lard slurping cousins, I am a child of divorce, grandaughter of a Baptist preacher and I am a delicate southern belle of a woman...who belives in love. NYC needs to stop romanticizing us. There must be relationship issues in outer space too. Let there be geritol at My wedding.

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jason (Jason)

Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 11:07 am Click here to edit this post
here's my 2 cents ....

people talk about this thing alot. and i have to say if you are over 30 and tell a person on a date you are not married or never been married it will count against you. for whatever reason it seems that society views marriage as "validation" process.
but it is a catch 22 ..because if you say you have been divorced.... that's not good either. the best thing a person can say is "i'm divorced because we got married out of high school and grew apart over the years" ... that's probably more acceptable. and whatever you do .... don't sit there and trash the ex-spouse. i just makes you look like a sore loser or someone who is BS'ing to cover up their excuses.


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