     voigtkampff | Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 06:36 am 
Kristy made a very accurate analogy between dating and interviews. In both situations, we dress up and act better than we really are on the typical day. In fact, I think that most of us even bend further than that, and even try to present the image that we think the other party is looking for. Everything that I know in life I learned from Star Trek, so in response to Kirstie Alley and in the words of Spock in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: "You lied? No, I exaggerated."
Don't we all exaggerate. From him: Yes, I LOVE to read!! (comic books count right?) From her: Yes, I LOVE the ultimate fighting championships!!! (well I saw Rocky, that counts right?) From him: Yes, I ADORE children!!!! (they can't be TOO different from furbees, right?)
Isn't it then hypocritical to be upset when someone does it to us. As in the case of the post that started this, it would be bad for a woman to lie about the fact that she is not married. But that's me. Everyone has their own limit to how much exaggerating that they are comfortable with.
I saw a study on the accuracy of resumes for job applications. I forget the numbers, but a huge percentage outright objectively lied.
If we're dating, maybe we should do what employers do. Accept that people are probably lying. In dating interviews, the difference is that most of us are lying right back. Get to really know the person. Maybe compromise. Read animated comics about furbees that fight to the death.
I don't think that this is the motivation for most men, but the really good thing about dating someone much younger is that they have not yet learned how to lie really well. |
| holly | Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 07:20 am
I don't think that this is the motivation for most men, but the really good thing about dating someone much younger is that they have not yet learned how to lie really well.
----see I would think the opposite is true. The older you get the more likely you are to realize how fruitless outright lying really is. There clearly is a difference between getting all gussied up for a date and saying nice things and telling your date you work for the FBI when you really work for at the city dump. I spent much more time on "appearances" when I was 18 then I do now. I now know eventually they are going to see you in daylight with no makeup and that eventually they'll figure out you are a waitress at a diner not the maitre d' at Chez Pierre's. True? |
| voigtkampff | Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 01:47 pm
The truth about physical appearance is easy to discover. But how many times do you hear about people who were married for years saying that "I really thought he was in the FBI" or "I really thought that he was a male." There are some things that might never see "daylight". Remember the movie True Lies. Some lies might not last indefinitely, but they do last long after the first date. More on this later. |
| voigtkampff | Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 03:50 pm
Practice makes perfect, even if you're practicing to lie. I suspect that a lot of people feel as you do, that they don't need the nonsense, the lying, and will get straight to the point. But that is definitely not true for everyone.
As people get older they get harder to read. Next time that you are at Denny's and the high school crowd comes in for breakfast at midnight, watch them. It's amusing. They are so transparent. The body language, the hair flips, the exaggerated macho stuff - it's all a joke. Then watch a couple in their very early 20s. The studied aloofness and coolness is much more subtle then its predecessor (playing hard to get) but it's still silly sometimes.
These are artifices. Whether its body language or spoken language, people get better with age. I can't read someone older than myself, but can generally read someone younger. I suspect that you can too. |
| Sean | Monday, January 17, 2000 - 07:29 am
Lying in job interviews is grounds for dismissal. Lying on dating interviews the same.
Actually, at least where I'm at, jobs are an "at-will" type of situation. Anyone can quit at any time, without cause and anyone can be fired, at any time, without cause. Marriage, however, is a contract with penalties for early termination.
People should be liable for misstatements of fact made in order to secure a marriage. It's fraud. Never get married without having your spouse positively vetted by a competent private investigator and always insist on a prenuptual agreement.
I also recommend a liquidated damages clause. |
| Greg Fisher, creditscoring.com | Monday, January 17, 2000 - 08:56 am
Sean:
What about calling Fair, Isaac and responding with the keypad code that identifies you as a mortgage broker when you are not one (as you have suggested).
Is that lying? |
| voigtkampff | Monday, January 17, 2000 - 12:29 pm
Sean, that's sort of a hardline, extreme position. You can't still be upset or frustrated about that woman's lie? People lie. I don't lie, but I accept that people do it. Maybe a little more acceptance.
And maybe I do lie. Or at least mislead. And hopefully without offense, I must ask if you might not mislead a little bit. If you know that you have a strong political view that might put some women off before they have a chance to appreciate you, wouldn't you avoid that issue on the first dates. Or at least minimize the more abrasive points. I don't know you, but I assume that everyone does that. That everyone puts on a vanilla facade at the beginning. The skeletons come out only little by little, after one tests the waters.
One of the main reasons that I broke up with my last girlfriend was that she lied. What's worse is that she was GOOD at it. I really do hate liars. But maybe some more understanding.
I know I'll take heat on this but consider Clinton. Yes he lied under oath. But his infidelity had no bearing on his ability to run most of a continent. The question should not have been asked. He was placed into a position where he may have been forced to lie. I would rather not do anything unless I can proclaim loudly that I did it. But call me Pinocchio if my girlfriend asks me about my feelings for Elle MacPherson.
Sometimes people are "forced" to lie in an attempt to avoid problems. Or in an attempt to give the relationship a chance. I would not be happy if a woman lied about her age so that I would give her a chance. But I would understand and I think I would forgive. (This actually happened in the best marriage that I have seen so far. He lied and did not tell her until just before the marriage ceremony!!) I would not be as forgiving about other lies. Her former gender perhaps. |
| Don | Tuesday, January 18, 2000 - 11:08 am
Actually what I find is as I get older, I don't 'lie' more. Technically I 'lie' less, I 'lie-by-omission' more. I don't need to build myself up, but am now smart enough on the 'interview' to realize that there are just some things that a person doesn't need to know just yet. |
| voigtkampff | Wednesday, January 19, 2000 - 06:39 pm
Reminds me of an interesting, shocking discussion I had. Talking to a female attorney about infidelity. She said that if her husband ever cheated on her, she would not want to know. That was not something that she needed to know. She was anti-honesty.
But her reasoning was very logical. If he told her, it would serve to relieve his guilt, and would only hurt her on many levels. In short it would be selfish. Again. It would be more fair if he lived with the guilt, forever, and never did it again. |
| rcb | Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 06:03 am
voigtkampff -
But his infidelity had no bearing on his ability to run most of a continent.
I disagree. Breach of trust. If he'll go so far as to break the commitment he's made in the presence of his own God to his wife, he'd sure as hell lie through his teeth to me, the lowly little taxpayer whom has entrusted him to make the best decisions for the country (and not those influenced by bribes or PAC money).
If your wife/girlfriend lied to and cheated on you, and she happened to be your personal accountant as well, would you allow her continue managing your assets? |
| kristy welsh | Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 06:57 am
Hey Don:
Ommitting the truth is still lying.
voigtkampff:
I would want to know if my spouse was cheating on me. I like to have all the facts when I make decisions regarding the outcome of my life (spouses have an irritating habit of affecting your finances and living arrangements).
But seriously, I'd rather have the pain than not know what was going on. And if a spouse was cheating on me...well, it would depend on the situation, I guess. In 99% of the cases, I would dump him, however, I would like to know the facts. BTW, thanks for the nice quote above. :) |
| voigtkampff | Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 07:39 am
RCB, I accept that people lie. Everyone has a cutoff on how much of a lie is not "white" enough. I feel that it is hypocritical to absolutely condemn people for lying. I don't curse people who cut me off in traffic, because I may have done the same to someone in the past, or I may do it in the near future. It would not be intentional if I did/do it, but it may not have been intentional for that driver as well. I must be tolerant if I want people to be tolerant of me.
Personally, I would rather know if a spouse cheated. Still it is interesting that honesty can be selfish.
If a wife/girlfriend lied and cheated, would I trust her to be my personal accountant? Inapplicable analogy, but I will answer. If she lied, the nature of the lie would determine. If I asked her how my butt looked, or whether she was attracted to my brother, or how many men she slept with, or whether she ever slept with a woman, then I may have forced her to lie. (Oh my gosh, did I just imply that I have an unattractive butt?) She can do my accounting forever. If I asked her about something financial and she lied, then I would have a problem.
How about if she cheated? Cheating is not lying. I may have forced her to cheat by being physically or emotionally abusive. Or by being completely inattentive to her needs. In the marriage vows she may have promised fidelity, but I promised to make her happy, and I promised not to hurt her. Who preemptively breached the vows?
If she cheated and there is no excuse, then I suspect that we will have no relationship at all, personal or professional.
But the analogy is inappropriate. Call me cynical, but I think that a certain moral flexibility is needed to be a president. Some decisions would probably be required, for the good of the country, that I could not handle if I were the Jim Carrey character in "Liar, Liar". Sometimes the country needs to be lied to. Eg. an asteroid the size of Texas was on a collision course with Earth, and there would be "a breakdown is basic social sevices" if people were told the truth. As Streisand said, we voted him president, not pope. Would you really want the pope for president? There are political realities to face. |
| voigtkampff | Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 07:49 am
Here is a personal story which compares omission to affirmatively lying. (I thought I posted this before, so I hope that its absence is because my memory is faulty, and not because it was spammed.)
I break up with girlfriend. Still with her best interests at heart, I helped set her up with a friend because I earlier noticed a strong chemistry between them. They eventually break up. She and I later give it another try. She tells me of a past trip to Disney. I DO NOT ASK AND DID NOT CARE (because I had no right) but SHE OFFERS that she was not there with him. Later find out that he was there and that they shared a room.
There was no need to lie because I did not ask, and had no right to. She lied when she should have omitted. When challenged with the truth, she explained that she did not care for him, so he was not really "there" with her. Straight face. Very convincing. Very scary.
I am brutally honest. In that I agree with Kristy. But I accept that other people are not, and I feel that it is unreasonable (impractical) to expect otherwise. In that I agree a little with Don. |
| rcb | Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 08:31 am
But the analogy is inappropriate. Call me cynical, but I think that a certain moral flexibility is needed to be a president.
Exactly my point, but you've turned it around. I believe that the most powerful man in the world, the leader of the free world, the Commander in Chief of the Armed Services should be held to much HIGHER standards than others. What he/she does/says/decides/permits/rejects affects millions and potentially billions of people's lives. An old girlfriend, on the other hand, would just piss me off or upset me for a few months. |
| kristy welsh | Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 01:11 pm
rcb:
Totally off the subject, but thanks for correcting my web pages.
voigtkampff:
Still a little off topic hear, too. Yeah, Mr. Bill is pretty sad and pathetic (and a LIAR) but I voted for him and would again. I mostly approve in his choice of Mr. Greenspan. He hasn't been doing too bad, we'll see what happens in the future (will any unforseen consequences arise from the choices he made in his presidency?) I wonder how history will remember Mr. Clinton, if at all. No wars happened, nothing really earth shattering at all happened under his helm except technology. |
| Fore Warned | Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 08:51 pm
Regarding the subject of honesty versus lying in relationships, this is my viewpoint:
If a woman says "Does this dress make me look fat?", only an idiot would say "Yeah, hippo city!" or "No, it's not the dress, it's your porcine figure."
If a man says "Will you still find me attractive if I lose my hair?", only an idiot would say "Yeah, but not nearly as much." or "You better hope that Rogaine really does work, fella!".
On the other hand, cheating in what is understood to be a monogamous relationship is a very serious matter. Here's why:
AIDS!
Acquired Immune Difficiency Syndrome. There is no cure. The victims die. End of story! Did I mention that there is NO CURE and that the victims DIE? (Guess I did, my bad!)
The ultimate selfish act is to subject a person to the risk of AIDS and to lie about it (outright or by omission) by sleeping around. If you're sleeping around, tell the truth. Honesty does more good than cowardice in the long run. It can save lives, including your own (your partners in affairs are lying to you, too. Be wise!) |
| kristy welsh | Friday, January 21, 2000 - 04:55 am
Fore Warned:
An idiot might say "Hippo City", but a real friend might say, "well, you have put a little weight and that dress isn't your most flattering". I think you can tell the truth without going all out to hurt someone's feelings. I would want a friend to tell me the truth.
Other than that, yes, cheating these days can be deadly. |
