     voigtkampff | Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 08:04 am 
Most of my friends are women. And so many have complained to me about the sex lives with their boyfiends. Yet they never tell the boyfriends. One recently married the guy, and has yet to tell him that she is not enjoying herself.
It scares me. I wonder who is talking to someone else about me. Maybe I stink too.
Is it a lie or an omission. Then again, who cares as long as I have fun!!
Well it's an omission, but why can't they be honest. I yell at my friends (because yelling re-affirms that they can't talk to men about this problem) and say that they deserve bad sex if they don't tell him. They respond that you can't tell a man that he is bad kisser, let alone something more personal. And you can't advise either. The men get very offended. Are our egos that weak?
I would want to know. (perhaps not now and not on this board, though). I think that one of the greatest compliments that a woman can give a man is to communicate that she feels he is self-confident. That he is not a boy. Don't just say it. Rather than oral or tactile communication, demonstrate it. Tell him a constructive criticism, and show that you know that he can handle it.
Use your judgment and do not get a beating. |
| kristy welsh | Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 12:55 pm
So is this a question about men and their sexual prowness?
If so, I think most men (but certainly not all) don't have the first clue about pleasing their women. They think that whatever feels good to them, feels good to their partner. This is something which is incredible to me, but I think the media (the porn industry in particular) does encourage some wrong thinking about what women want. It's a rare (and wondrous) thing to find a man who has taken the time to figure out what works. Of course, not all women (or men) like the same things, but we usually play on the same field.
Is it the responsibility of the woman to tell her man what feels good to her? Absolutely. Unfortunately, it's been my experience that some men (even ones who geniunely have cared about me) are so defensive that they are unable to take or hear feedback. |
| voigtkampff | Thursday, January 20, 2000 - 01:39 pm
I took a number of feminism courses while in law school. I have mixed feelings about the classes. Knowledge is power. But in this case, knowledge was humilation. I was not attacked. But I learned how stupid and ignorant I was. Who wants to learn that? But then who wants to hide from the truth? I still don't understand women, but I know enough to be embarrassed by the conduct of other men.
I found the same thing when I hung out with BLSA (the Black Law Student Association). I discovered that I have some racist attitudes, even though I'm a minority myself. More ignorance on my part.
Kristy's last paragraph hits hard, especially since these men actually cared. But this is consistent with what I have heard from most women. |
| kristy welsh | Friday, January 21, 2000 - 04:48 am
voigtkampff:
What kind of feminism classes did you take? Very cool.
This may be a completely ignorant opinion, but I think men and women are basically the same: we all want to be loved, respected and have something interesting and worthwhile to do. Men have that extra bilogical drive for physical intimacy, but the rest of our differences are pretty small. So, therefore, I don't think men are that difficult to understand. I think I understand them quite well. |
| Voigtkampff | Monday, January 24, 2000 - 07:10 am
Hey Kristy, just back from vacation. I only remember the subject matter and the professors' names. It's been 7 or 8 years. I know that one course spent a great deal of time on the issue of phallocentric thought. Have you ever heard of that? Wild.
I have always believed that men and women are the same, but that belief is fading with age. I was always offended by the roles and attire of women in the old Star Trek episodes, even though Yeoman Rand was attractive. Thought it was great to have a female security chief in the Next Generation, but Roddenbery should have found an actress with real martial arts experience. Oops. You almost got me onto the forbidden tangent.
Men and women may want the same thing, LOVE and RESPECT, but they also probably want the same thing as every animal and mammal. I am not being facetious, but just to use extremes to demonstrate a point, I am sure that aardvarks want love and respect. But how do they perceive and communicate that? Differently. Men and women also communicate it differently.
There may be an illusion of similarity because of a common spoken language, and cultural uniformity that comes from watching the same TV shows. I think that we all know that it shows a lack of RESPECT to "re-gift" thanks to Seinfeld episodes. I feel sort of like I'm lying when I give flowers that mean nothing to me, but I know that flowers are a culturally acknowledged icon of affection, so I give this meaningless thing anyway in order to manipulate a response. The PERCEPTION of affection.
You mention physical intimacy. I think that means different things to the 2 genders. To men, it means sex. I fear that it can mean nothing (pure hedonism). It can mean love. But that's not all. It can also be a mere re-affirmatioon of one's masculinity; case in point I knew someone who slept with over a 100 women. He would take pictures of them naked and show them around. And he would tell us about what he did to them in bed. Things that you don't do unless you are trying to demean an animal. I think that he hated women and/or was gay. He was trying to prove his masculinity either to his friends or, more likely, to himself. What did the women in these relationships want? Probably not the same thing. Of course, I'm just scratching the surface. Sex can mean many more things.
How about to women? Well it sure does seem like physical intimacy means intimacy that is physical, and not just sex. I believe that for some people, there is a romantic equivalent to the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy. Remember that? There is a constant amount of matter and energy in the universe, and it cannot be changed. It can only be converted from matter to energy. Not that's not Star Trek - it's high school science. I knew a woman who could be very close, initmate friends with men, but only until the conversational intimacy gave way to physical intimacy. As she became more physically intimate, she was less open and communicative. Very interesting. A constant of intimacy, but it could convert from physical to conversational.
I could go on for days about the differences. But to quickly overgeneralize, physical intimacy can be a conquest. See the hill, take the hill. Semper Fi. If he chants a march during sex, it's a bad sign (unless it really does help the cadence). Or it can be a visible manifestation of the lowering of invisible walls, of dropping emotional barriers and exposing the soft underbelly. As when you hear someone say that they give up a piece of themselves everytime they have sex. I think that I have done it for both reasons.
But maybe any reason for physical intimacy is a good reason, and we cannot criticize the other person just because of a different motivation. I say that, but I'm trying to convince myself. |
| kristy | Sunday, January 30, 2000 - 08:44 am
Voigtkampff:
Just back from vacation (really).
Whew, it's tough for me to follow long posts. Just a comment.
I hope your experience with a woman who became less communicative as physical intimacy got more intense isn't your only data point. (I'm sure it isn't). Just FYI, I've know men that react the same way.
I agree that sex is more likely to be just "sex" rather than an expression of love and affection for men than women. But not always. And not all women have sex purely to express emotion.
In any case, I think that whatever you look for, you find. I look for the similarities between men and women and always find them. People look for evidence to support their own beliefs. You just have to figure out what you're looking for. I think I understand men just fine. It's idiots and people who can't think for themselves that mystify me (and I'm not including you in this batch.) The aforementioned group is the most likely to be biased, intolerant, and unable to escape their own miseries. |
| Cliff | Sunday, February 13, 2000 - 08:00 am
Dear Voigt Kamp; Look, just take the little man in the boat out for a spin every now and then you know what I'm sayin? Oh and, stop rocking the boat too. |
