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     | Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 04:49 am  Help!! I have several questions. 1- After a nasty divorce, I had a voluntary repo with an auto in 1990. In 1992 I had a judgement placed against me for the amount left over from the sell of the vehicle- since then I've had no contact with the party. The information I have found on the SOL is five years in my state- Nothing has surface since the judgement, the SOL has past on the judgement and the seven years on the repo, Can this still be reported to the CRA's? It still shows in the court records at the court house. Can it be held against me? 2- I had two Federal Tax Leins applied to me in 1996. In June of 1997 they were paid in full and show satisfied with the Clerk of Court. The Clerk told me that they do not report to the CRA's and that if they show up it's because a person walk into the courthouse , looked up my name and didn't bother to look at the books that show they are satisfied. Is this correct? Now I would like to apply for a home mortage. Will these show as a negative even though they have been fully satisfied? If they show up will a lender take a proof of payment as a satisfactory explanation? Any advice would be appreciated, rudee
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| | Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 07:50 am Judgements are subject to the same 7 year limit as any derogatory credit remark, such as the repo. If your credit report shows the 1992 date for filing of the judgement, simply dispute it with the CRA, and it will be removed. CAVEATS: Do a search on this board for "judgement". Judgements can be renewed, I believe, but I think that has to happen BEFORE the SOL expires. If this is the case, then you are free and clear. Also, there is a possibility of the SOL that would control your situation is that of the state in which the lender resides, or due to a contractual stipulation that was in the language of the document you signed. For example, many things you sign in CA say that any disputes will be governed by the laws of CA, regardless. At any rate, 4-6 years is the SOL in most states, but check this URL for a complete list. http://www.creditinfocenter.com/rebuild/statuteLimitations.shtml Many 3rd party businesses cull corthouse records and then report this information in bulk to the CRA's. Quite a few don't do good jobs of updating and being acccurate. A tax lien stays on your record for 7 years AFTER PAID or RELEASED....not the date it was filed. However, you stand a good chance of disputing this and having it deleted for "no response" if this courthouse does not report directly to the CRA's. They are indeed a negative item and will hurt your FICO score, but at least the pay-off date is 3 years old, and the older a derogatory item is, the less impact it has on FICO. However, you, at the minimum, need to get your credit report updated to reflect they are paid. Do this by getting a copy of the release from the courthouse (notarized will be a BIG help), and send them to the CRA's and there should be no problem in getting the 1997 pay-off date listed as their being satisfied. As far as getting a mortgage, the lender will accept proof from the courthouse (again, notarized)that the liens are satisfied. The question is, if you you run your FICO score BEFORE the paid lien is listed on your reports (as opposed to it saying is is still "open" at this point), how much difference will it make in you score? Given what you describe above, I'd say it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference in your getting the loan. But, you will have to prove to the lender that the liens are satisfied.
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| | Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 01:21 pm I had to think about this for a while and here are my OPINIONS. 1) re the 1992 judgment for the repo: The SOL for a judgment is 10 years, unless it is renewed. It also stays on the credit report for 10 years, until 2002 in this case. (as per FCRA) Paying it will not make a difference for credit scores, BUT the mortgage lender and the title insurance company will most likely require that the judgment be satisfied. 2) re the 1996 tax liens: They also stay on the report for 10 years from the date they were filed, not from the payment date. (I assume that the FTC Opinion Letters re. dates on collections/charge-offs apply to judgments as well.) There is really nothing to dispute unless they were filed in ERROR or show unpaid. While public records MAY not show up on the regular credit reports, a RMCR (residential mortgage credit report) contains a Public Records Search enhancement. That's one of the reasons why it costs more. 3) re getting a mortgage: Rudee should find a mortgage broker who agrees to provide the preliminary mortgage credit report with ALL ** 3 ** credit scores. It shouldn't cost more than $20. Then you'll know what your Scores are, and a competent mortgage broker can tell you what your chances of getting a mortgage are. PAYING a tax lien is not a satisfactory explanation. A few years ago FNMA actually started to reject DIVORCE as an explanation/excuse for credit problem. I don't know their CURRENT guidelines. There are alternative lenders, but of course they'll charge more. Do NOT even bother to look a houses until you have a WRITTEN ** unconditional ** mortgage commitment. It's not that you can't buy a house, but you have to do your homework and maybe get some seller financing if you don't have a lot of down payment. Much depends on the REST of your loan application (employment, income, liabilities, assets ...) If you find that you can get a mortgage, you can NEGOTIATE the judgment. After such a long time they'll probably be happy to settle for 10 cents on the dollar. But I recommend NOT contacting them yourself as they might want more cash if they find out where you are and that you NEED to settle. If I'm wrong on the judgment/lien reporting guidelines and SOL, I would greatly appreciate postings with FCRA and Opinion Letter references. There are a lot of places on the web disseminating INCORRECT info and my goal is to be as ACCURATE as possible here at BayHouse.
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| | Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 04:48 pm I FORGOT that there ARE State laws that apply to the SOL on judgments. 10 years is California. I'm surprised to see 5 years for a judgment SOL. What State is that? I just checked some random (but not all) States and got between 10 and 20 years. Somehow THIS doesn't make sense: the SOL for a judgment is only 5 years while the SOL for the repo is 7 years? STATE laws can also shorten the amount of time it can be reported on the credit report, I was referring to the FCRA.
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| | Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 05:13 pm Christine, you are right about the tax lien running 7 ears from FILING date, not the PAID date as I thought (I'm glad to know this too, as I have this situation). I could have sworn that I had that right. On the judgement thing, I do believe it is 7 years instead of 10 for listing on the credit report. Ask Max addresses both these issues here:http://www.experian.com/corporate/max/max073097a.html I had a judgement that fell of my reports this past JAN, 7 years, to the month, from the file date. I didn't do anything to make this happen, so my conclusion is that the policy at all three is 7 years on judgements.
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| | Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 05:20 pm I just got a chance to look at my scores for my wife and myself. Here they are: Beacon (me)557 (wife)642 FICO 523 632 Imp 569 ??? This is with the tax leins showing unpaid on my account. The odd thing is the judgement did not show up on the RMCR. Yes, we've already applied for a mortgage and that's where all the tax leins showed up as being unpaid. I'm new to credit repair but we've got a relevantly "clean" record except for the biggies I've mentioned and a few collections that have also been paid some time ago but showed as unpaid. We're current on everything. My broker seems to think that we'll be ok in a few months once we get the tax leins showing paid as of '97. He says we "DO have a mess" but he could work with it. He's a very upfront guy who has been doing this for a VERY long time. So I have somewhat of trust with him. He's also offered to help with the appropriate letters that need to be written to the CRA's. BTW, We have good debt to income ratio, good employment record, and have a bit of a downpayment that we can swing. I think I can deal with the owner to do a lease to own option until we can get our report a bit cleaner. (??? This is with some insurance from the broker that we can get a loan in due time???) I know ****IF***** we get qualified we'll get a higher interest rate and such but I gotta at least try. Now some questions?????????? What do the listed scores mean to someone who knows? I don't know but I'll do some research. Will it help any scores to get payments that show unpaid showing as paid?? Do I need to hire an attorney/specialist to furthur assist me in handling any matters. I appreciate the offering of your "opinions" I'm not looking for pity or an easy way out just a little compensation for trying to do the right thing after falling behind in the past. This is rough. Thanks, rudee
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| | Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 05:35 pm Christine, *****Somehow THIS doesn't make sense: the SOL for a judgment is only 5 years while the SOL for the repo is 7 years?****** Sorry to be confusing I was referring to the 7 years on the reports as far as the repo showing up on a regular credit report. I was seperating the repo from the judgement. I guess they should be one in the same? Seems like they would be two seperate items? Bear with me, "I'm new to this" I'm guessing the SOL is 10 years where in live. In any case it didn't show on the RMCR or I have been asked about it- I haven't seen the report but I've been drilled about everyhing else and seems like if it was listed I would have had to give my explanation at the least ????. Bear with me, I'm a learnin'. Thanks for your responsee Both of you rudee
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| | Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 05:46 pm What if I have a tax lien that was filed in 4/90, but was never satisfied, can it be removed from my credit report because of the SOL which I believe is 10 years from date of filing? If so, how would I do this.
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| | Tuesday, May 16, 2000 - 05:48 pm I have to disagree on the tax liens. Judgments can remain for 7 years from date filed however if they are renewed and go unpaid then they are collectable for xx number of years per that states law and can remain collectable forever as long as the judgment creditor continues to renew, but seldom is it re-reported to your credit reports after the 7 years. Although I have seen that too. Tax liens however can remain on your file indefinitely if they remain unpaid and if they are paid they then remain 7 years from the date satisfied not filed. My conclusion is based on seeing this and arguing it for years and always coming to the same conclusion. Additionally I thoroughly went over this many times with out tax attorney who agreed. I do have to point out though that EXP says 7 from filing and TUC says 7 from paid and both do the opposite when you dispute them. They send back refusals that claim tax liens can remain for 7 years from date paid and that is why it is best to satisfy a lien ASAP to get the time behind you. Just my two cents 
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| | Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 12:50 am Ok, straight to the FCRA, this is going to be long! "§ 605. Requirements relating to information contained in consumer reports [15 U.S.C. § 1681c] (a) Information excluded from consumer reports. Except as authorized under subsection (b) of this section, no consumer reporting agency may make any consumer report containing any of the following items of information: (1) Cases under title 11 [United States Code] or under the Bankruptcy Act that, from the date of entry of the order for relief or the date of adjudication, as the case may be, antedate the report by more than 10 years. (2) Civil suits, civil judgments, and records of arrest that from date of entry, antedate the report by more than seven years or until the governing statute of limitations has expired, whichever is the longer period. (3) Paid tax liens which, from date of payment, antedate the report by more than seven years. (4) Accounts placed for collection or charged to profit and loss which antedate the report by more than seven years.(1) (5) Any other adverse item of information, other than records of convictions of crimes which antedates the report by more than seven years." Theory: For JUDGMENTS we have 7 years from the FILING or when the SOL expires, whichever is LONGER. So in Cal, a judgment could be on the report for 10 years from filing, because the SOL for judgments is 10 years. Real life: They may not show up on the CRA report after 7 years, but *SHOULD* show up on the RMCR. Even if a 9 year old judgment is somehow missed on the RMCR, you might have a very unpleasant surprise when you go to sign papers at the title company and they start asking you about that unpaid judgment and you can't close till it's satisfied. And here are the exclusions that apply to the above 7 yr or SOL limitations: "(b) Exempted cases. The provisions of subsection (a) of this section are not applicable in the case of any consumer credit report to be used in connection with (1) a credit transaction involving, or which may reasonably be expected to involve, a principal amount of $150,000 or more; (2) the underwriting of life insurance involving, or which may reasonably be expected to involve, a face amount of $150,000 or more; or (3) the employment of any individual at an annual salary which equals, or which may reasonably be expected to equal $75,000, or more." Note that there is absolutely NO time limitation for credit reporting at all. In theory you could have a 90 year old judgment show up when you apply for a mortgage or life insurance for $150K or a $75K job. We have previously discussed here that in practice this doesn't seem to happen. Of course I have mostly worked with younger people. Still, it's odd that I've never seen a public record over 10 years old on the RMCR. OK, on to the TAX LIENS: "(3) Paid tax liens which, from date of payment, antedate the report by more than seven years." That's simple. On the credit for a maximum of 7 years from payment, HOWEVER, also subject to the indefinite reporting exemption. Did I understand Kristi right that neither of the CRAs remove the tax liens even though Experian says it's 7 years from filing? I guess tax liens have no SOL? So this is the FEDERAL FCRA. There may be more restrictive limitations according to STATE law. It is VERY important to understand that Credit REPORTING has nothing to do with validating a debt. You can be legally liable for a debt that's NOT on the report and you can have debts showing on the credit report that are NO longer legally owed. It seems to me that it's not right to have the SOL expired while still showing it on the credit report as money owed. But that's how it seems to be. As far as Credit Scores go, all I know for sure is "I was also able to confirm that you will NOT improve your Scores by paying collections and charge offs. And it makes little difference whether you have one or more collections." I seem to recall from the Fair Isaac seminar that it doesn't make any? much? difference whether you have one or more public record entries and whether they are paid or not. I always *assumed* judgments and tax liens are treated the same, because they are referred to as "public records" but I don't really know that. And the only thing worse than having to bug Fair Isaac again is the prospect of having the CRAs all develop their own Scores so I'll have to bug ** 4 ** companies with 3 of them not responding at all .... Aside from all the rules and regs, you need to be aware that when you buy real estate with a mortgage, the lender will require title insurance. The title company won't issue the policy if they find any unsatisfied judgments or liens against you. That's why people with common names like myself have to fill out the "Statement of Identity" for the title company with residence and employment info going back 10 years (in California.) It used to really annoy me having to provide so much personal data, but I haven't found a way around it. That's how the title company establishes that the judgments aren't against me, they say ...
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| | Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 04:56 am But do UNPAID tax liens show up indefinitely, or should they be removed after 10 years. TIA for your response Christine.
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| | Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 06:37 am RE: The rule on judgements of 7 years or SOL, whichever is longer. I would imagine that the CRA's simply set their mechanism to the common denominator of 7 years in order to avoid the complexity of keeping up with 50 states and their particular SOL's. Makes sense. Consumer's get a small break for once, if it is so. ============ Christine - -can you take a minute to give more detail on what an RCMR actually encompasses? IS it just a public records search in addition to a merged credit report? Are there other areas one should check, in addition to credit reports, before applying for a mortgage?
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| | Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 07:28 am Ok, we got that straight. God, and the Government thinks consumers should be able to understand this? We do it everyday and still get confused huh! See, tax liens are very clear. They remain for 7 years from date satisfied not filed but can stay forever if they go unpaid. However, the SOL to collect a lien is 10 years and if the IRS does not collect any within 10 years, they do expire but can still sit on your report, how stupid is that? I have seen creditors renew judgments and extend the reporting time but I find that to be rare. Kristi CarreonandAssociates.com
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| | Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 09:12 am So should I try and settle a nine year old judgement?
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| | Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 09:49 am Lynn, Re RMCR: It contains only credit and public records info. The providers of the report are able to eliminate duplicate or incorrect accounts and to change incorrect data by actually calling/faxing to the creditors. Revised RMCRs or supplements are then issued and the lenders usually want to see all revisions. HOWEVER, that will not change the CRA data and often lenders will run their OWN inhouse cra report(s) just before funding the loan. Rudee: "If you find that you can get a mortgage, you can NEGOTIATE the judgment. After such a long time they'll probably be happy to settle for 10 cents on the dollar. But I recommend NOT contacting them yourself as they might want more cash if they find out where you are and that you NEED to settle." Before you do anything, check the links at http://www.bayhouse.com/discus/messages/123/157.html?946934239 to make sure you got the right SOL for the judgment. And if you tell us what STATE you're in you might get some more specific help too. And the tax lien EXPIRES after 10 years but stays on forever? Where can we find "official" info on the expiration?
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| | Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 04:36 pm In california what is the SOL for collections/reporting to CRAs? 5, 7 or 10?
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| | Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 06:27 pm Ok, you are mixing SOL and credit reporting! PLEASE try not to do that, it makes things even more confusing. The credit reporting time is 7 years for all states I think ... had a long day.
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| | Wednesday, May 17, 2000 - 08:16 pm Christine: Statute of Limitations for IRS Collection and Levy For assessments of tax or levy made after November 5, 1990, the IRS cannot either collect or levy any tax 10 (ten) years after the date of assessment of tax or levy. See Section 6502(a)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code and section 301.6502-1 of the income tax regulations. Court proceedings must also begin within the 10 year period of limitations. Section 301.6502-1(a)(1) of the regulations. For assessments of tax or levy made on or before November 5, 1990, the IRS cannot either collect or levy any tax 6 (six) years after the date of assessment of tax or levy. See section 6501(e) of the Code. However, if the 6 year period ends after November 5, 1990, the stuatute of limitations is 10 years. In order to come under the 6 year statute of limitations, the 6 year period must end prior to November 5, 1990. Time Limitations to Prevent the IRS From Assessing Tax Statute of Limitations for IRS Assessments General Rule - The IRS is required to assess tax within 3 (three) years after the return was filed. See section 6501(a) of the Code and section 301.6501(a)-1(a) of the regulations. Similarly, no proceeding in court without assessment for the collection of any tax can begin after the expiration of 3 years. See section 301.6501(a)-1(b) of the regulations. The statute of limitations is 6 (six) years if the taxpayer omits additional gross income in excess of 25% of the amount of gross income stated in the tax return. See section 6501(e) of the Code and section 301.6501(e)-1 of the regulations. The statue of limitations does not apply to tax returns prepared by the IRS under the authority of section 6020(b) of the Code. See section 6501(b)(3) of the Code and section 301.6501(b)-1(c) of the regulations. The statute of limitations does not apply in the case of a false or fraudulent return with intent to evade any tax. See section 6501(c)(1) of the Code and section 301.6501(c)-1 of the regulations. The 10 year IRS limitation can be extended by agreement provided the agreement is made prior to the expiration of the ten year period. See section 6501(c)(4) of the Code and section 301.6501(c)-1(d) of the regulations. http://www.irstaxattorney.com/statute.html
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| | Thursday, May 18, 2000 - 10:08 am Thanks Kristi, this is VERY complicated. And of course there are State income tax as well as OTHER tax liens. I can barely comprehend the FCRA. I guess people just have to see a tax attorney for tax liens.
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| | Thursday, May 18, 2000 - 02:46 pm I had two seperate STATE tax liens. I paid one off a couple months ago, and the other got paid off when they confiscated my state tax refund. Today I got a report from Experian and one shows as paid and the other as not paid, but both say they will fall of in 2002. I have decided to do nothing over either of them so they will just fall of in 2002 and not bring attention to the bureaus to keep them on for 7 years after the paid debt. When I asked the state about it, they were adament about not deleting it off my credit report and told me it does stay for 7 years after the paid date.
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