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     | Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 08:28 am  I've read several of the posts here and I've stumbled across a couple that have come close, but no one seems to be in as big of a mess as I am. And I can't help wondering if there is any hope for me at all, after all this time... I'm still young. Not quite 30 and I've been married for more than 10 years. My husband and I have 3 children and, up until about 4 years ago, we thought we were living moderately well. We both worked. He made about 40k and I made about 20k. Not much, but it suited us just fine. We had a nice apartment, 2 cars, a couple of major credit cards, several store charge cards, etc etc... Then we discovered our first born son had a hearing problem that needed to be corrected with surgery. Well, we had insurance, so we took care of that, naturally. Afterwards, he needed to attend speech and hearing classes at a local university. When I saw how it was done, I was certain I could do much better on my own and I felt my son really needed me, so I quit my job and stayed home with him. Almost right on que, I got pregnant again. We weren't unhappy about it. We just hadn't planned on another baby so soon. Added expense, true enough, but we felt we could stay above water. That is until my husband's pay was cut due to a change in ownership at his company. After that, he was making about 80% of what he had been making. It hurt us, but still wasn't deadly. What WAS deadly was when we dismissed earlier discussions about wise spending and started getting into debt with the purchase of a new "family" vehicle. We got a larger, much more expensive apartment and bought a lot of baby furniture on... you guessed it... our credit card! We also had a lot of much needed work done on our old car, also using one of the credit cards to do it. Okay, to make a long story short, it eventually caught up to us. We were barely paying the bills, after a while. Insurance, rent, car payments, credit card bills, and my student loan. It was just too much! Eventually, we started slipping, big time. We stopped paying certain things. Yes, the student loan was one of those things. God, if I'd known how much I was going to pay for that! When I found out I was pregnant yet again, we panicked and my husband filed bankruptcy. We felt I should stay off it because the only major bill I had was my student loan. We made skiddish attempts to pay on it, but eventually, that just fell by the way side. Oh yes, I almost forgot to mention, we ended up getting evicted from our apartment due to a rent payment that was late by about 3 days. We weren't knowledgable enough about it to know we could have fought it so we moved in with my mother. We've been living with her in her 4 bedroom (and getting more cramped by the minute) house. Needless to say, we were almost mentally broken. Well, we simply sat and drooled for about 2 years. We couldn't believe we'd fallen so low. Then we made more skiddish attempts to get it back. Failed miserably each time. My husband doesn't even try anymore. He was eventually laid off from his job and was out of work for two months. I kept food on the table (my mother does expect us to pay rent and utilities and buy our own food) by getting a temporary job. He eventually found another job that he's been on for a year now, but it's killing him. He works mad hours for pocket change. AND we're down to one car that shakes and rattles so badly, we're sure it's going to die any day now. Our marriage is hanging by a thread because we can't agree on anything and we haven't made ANY progress since moving in here. So! That's my horror story. Any suggestions? Suicide perhaps?
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| | Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 08:40 am I am sorry to hear of your troubles and I can speak from experience that it will get better but you must allow yourself time and deal with life on a day by day schedule until you start to feel better. Suicide only compounds the problem so if you are feeling as if that is a solution,seek professional help. Also, money is the root of all evil between couples, try and get help there. Depression (it seems to my unprofessional view that you are there) is a killer so get some help. Loss of a job is devastating. Trying to recover is hard but know that there are millions like you who are good people that have had life kick them down. Anyone can find themselves where you are at. Keep plugging. Have your husband sign on and commiserate. I was out of a decent job for almost two years and I know how hard it is. There are others who can help you get through the hell. Hang in there.
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| | Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 09:58 am Anonymous!!!! Please, before you do anything, get some help!! Nothing is that bad! Seriously!! There are people on this board, who I know will help you. Keep checking back. Meantime..take care.
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| | Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 10:22 am I'm sure you have the sympathy of most of the posters here. My comment is to consider the more important things of your situation first: Your husband's "re-building" of confidence and esteem, and for BOTH of you, the FACT that your situation is NOT hopeless! The fist place to start, for both of you, is to convince yourselves that, YES, things CAN get better. IT will be VERY hard work, and it will take time. For the credit stuff, that can be fixed, especially with time, but try to focus on the roots of your situation first (what seems to be a "beaten down" will), then handling jobs, credit, etc. will look like a more manageable task. MANY people have had such travesties befall them, so don't go thinking you are wierd or odd! People get into these things, AND THEY CAN AND DO GET OUT...you can too, but start with a faith that it CAN happen for you.
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| | Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 01:19 pm Skinnerian psychology observes that one of the most depressing facts for any living thing to accept, is the fact that it is helpless. Often does lead to suicide. Bad to accept that one has no control over one's own life. Things happen nomatter what we do. To understand the control which you truly do have, will require an understanding of the credit reporting system, so that you can methodically plot out and plan the steps to measurable improvement of your condition. Your credit profile is a self-description that you have a great deal of control over. It is a picture which you actually get to paint. We all lament that there are a number of mysterious elements to FICO scoring, but also all have an understanding of how to manipulate it. However your credit is not the problem. It is a symptom of an existing problem: inadequate income. No advice there. Keep looking. But employers, like anyone, can read body language. Noone hires as the CEO of a budding budiness someone who is beaten and has given up. Your face and your mannerisms are part of the resume. Employers will less if they can sense that you are desperate enough to take anything. The only way that I can think of to give you the sense of control needed to hoist you up by your bootsraps is if you formally write out a gameplan, and then record your progress and SUCCESS in following that plan. Note improvements. That sense of control, if you genuinely feel it, should communicate itself to future employers. Sleep, exercise and mediatation are also good. Reflect on how bad today is, but that is still a little bit better than yesterday, and that you are the one who made it better. Understand that the leading cause of divorce is financial problems. Understand that the absence of a familial foundation which you feel is simply an ILLUSION. It is just the money problems, and not truly an absence of love. Apathy, and not the anger of a heated argument, is the opposite of love. But understand the impact of this illusion. You must each PERCEIVE that you are there for each other. It might sound sappy, but the strength that you feel in your relationship should convey itself to an employer. I don't know about you, but I can sense when a person is desperate (or they have given up and are without support), even if I don't know why they are desperate.
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| | Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 01:54 pm Well, the question is, HOW do people get back on track? We have a lot of postings in the Forum on student loans, and it seems to me that your student loans should be the least of the problems. Are you STILL trying to pay them or did you get a deferral? Do you have health insurance that will cover counseling? How are you and your husband getting along with your mother? The only thing that comes to my mind is that you might want to actually separate for a while and go on welfare. Your husband can then slow down a little, and concentrate on getting a better job and getting his mental health back. And you *might* just get some money AND counseling. If you post your location maybe somebody knows of an organization in your area that you can contact for help. There are a LOT of people committing suicide because they have no hope. It's NOT called suicide, but overdose and liver damage. You got three kids who need both you and your husband. And you posted here because you know that. Don't give up, look into some changes. Post some more info! And how old are your kids and what's your professions?
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| | Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 01:34 pm Trust me, I know how you feel. I was young, and stupid, and made the mistake of getting married while I was still in college. Up to that point, I had a fairly decent credit report. I think I had maybe 2 or 3 late payments, due to a summer where I couldn't find a job. I had entirely too many cards. I know this. I also made the mistake of deciding my education was important, and I didn't want to be one of a number, so I went to a private university. I now have about 30k in student loans, of which, about 8K are in default. To make an incredibly long soap opera short, I ended up having to drop classes to put food on the table, and a roof over our heads; that, in addition to the text books I did need for the classes I was taking (I had a $500 semester once, because the teachers for one class decided that they needed new books). Everything was in my name, because I had credit, and my ex-husband (note the 'ex' part) didn't - including a 9K car loan. I ended up leaving him a year after we were married. We'd managed to make rent, and utility payments, and payments on insurance & the car, but everything else was suffering. He kept spending money left & right (there's a lot more to my leaving him that that), and we had squat. He crawled back to his mommy & daddy (he was 23 at the time), who gladly gave him the money for the divorce lawyer. In the mean time, I'm working 2-3 jobs, and still didn't have the money for rent, let alone bill payments. Divorce filed on irreconcilable differences, and I got stuck with ALL the bills (since everything was in my name), including a couple of utility bills I wasn't there to rack up. It's been almost 4 years now. I've made a few payments to a collection agency on the student loan that's in default (also, my former university charged me $150 for dropping out ... um, excuse me ... if I could afford the $150, I could afford to stay there!); this wonderful agency who said 'make this many payments, you're loan'll be current, yo u can get it consolidated.' I found out today, that was total bull. I've remarried to a wonderful man, but my former bills are NOT his problem, nor is it his duty to have to pay them off. I'm totally lost as to what I should do, reguarding everything. I think, all in all, I'm probably about $40k-$50k in debt, most of which hasn't been paid off in 3-4 years. That may not seem like a huge amount, until you realize that my student's loans alone are more than half of my husband's current salary. My exhusband? Daddy gave him the money to go back to school and get his degree. Me? I'm just being mommy now. It'll work out, somehow; things always do. I just don't know what my options really are right now.
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| | Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 07:03 pm Dear Anonymous (2-22-00; 11:28AM): Suicide is NOT the answer!! I can't say I've never thought of it, so I can't fault you for the thought... BUT, I will say DON"T DO IT!! YOUR CHILDREN NEED YOU!!!!! I'm not an expert on anything and I could be wrong. Reading your post, it seems to me that you are more concerned with your first child's hearing. Your priorities are right on target, in my humble opinion. It seems (to me) that your husband is more concerned with a socially acceptable "family vehicle" and a "larger, very expensive" apartment. The idea of a sensible family budget, that fell by the wayside, seems to be yours, and he is not in agreement with it at this point in time. Right or wrong? Your children and your student loan obligation are very important. Should you believe otherwise? Why? Listen to yourself before all others (maybe your husband is right, maybe your mother is right-- and maybe YOU are right!!)
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| | Tuesday, February 22, 2000 - 07:46 pm Neither divorce nor suicide is the answer. When a couple first marry they have so much opportunity. Normally they find themselves with plenty of excess money because two people can live almost as cheaply as one. This excess money could be used to purchase stocks, bonds, real estate or other investments that produce additional monthly income and move the couple towards the day when they will be making as much off of their investments as they do working. Sadly, however, most couples spend their excess money buying furniture, electronics, cars and extravagent houses -- and usually on credit. Their expenses grow until they exactly match their income. When more income is gained the expenses grow again. The problem is that the school system has failed them. Oh, it's taught them how to be good employees -- but try going to school and asking to take Credit 101, Income 101 and Capitalism 101. Schools don't teach you those things. That's why everyone should read Robert T. Kiyosaki's book titled: If You Want to Be Rich & Happy : Don't Go to School? : Ensuring Lifetime Security for Yourself and Your Children Go to amazon.com right now and buy it.
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| | Wednesday, February 23, 2000 - 02:00 am In response to Christine's question, how do you get back on track--get out the paper and make a list of attributes and skills and qualities that need to be overcome or improved. Look at the want ads--this economy has everyone working, but not necessarily good jobs. Realize that every job--good and bad--is only temporary and you have to make the most of it while it is there. Resolve to practice interviewing skills--it is a game and you must know the answers to give. The depression will lift but will take between a few months to a year...you have to slug it out. On the counseling side, most are drive through and throw you prozac or similar psychotropic drugs after a 3 minute evaluation (HMO style). The drugs can help but they also numb and the counseling is then there on your records to prevent you from getting life insurance or employment. Do not, in my opinion, pay with insurance--make private arrangements that are not disclosed. Depression is still viewed as a weakness not a disease by most--which is a tragedy because it can and is overcome everyday. I agree with the Amazon point--go to the bookstore and check out the books on how to get employed. You may not get the first job you want, it may take a year but the first is the right step in the road to recovery. Claw your way back. Good luck. Keep posting.
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| | Wednesday, February 23, 2000 - 02:15 am but try going to school and asking to take Credit 101, Income 101 and Capitalism 101 Actually, you can, it just doesn't go by that name. The class is usually titled 'Economics', and teaches all about credit, credit cards, checking account, loans, etc. It's a requirement in many (not all) states that a student take at least 1/2 credit of Economics before they'll be issued their high school diploma. Problem is, they don't put enough emphasis on the budgeting & keeping out of debt, nor how to get out of debt once you're there. They could certainly use a cirriculum rewrite, as well as requiring more than just a 1/2 credit hour.
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| | Wednesday, February 23, 2000 - 02:31 am I was going to volunteer to teach economics at my alma mater (with an emphasis on credit and budget) so my son could get free tuition. I came to this conclusion after going to a reunion and realizing that 90% didn't have a clue as to how it all worked and if the least little thing went wrong, it was a deck of cards leading to a similar situation like the original post.
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| | Wednesday, February 23, 2000 - 03:09 am When I was having financial problems, I found that my student loan servicer was ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS more than willing to help me my granting me forebearances. I think they will do just about anything to keep you from defaulting. These normally can be granted for a year at a time, and you can usually renew them if you need to. Call them. Work something out, thats one less thing you will have to worry about.
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| | Wednesday, February 23, 2000 - 06:16 pm I highly recommend Quicken for budgeting, I know people who it has helped tremendously. HOWEVER, there is no software and no book that will tell you how to survive when your NECESSARY expenses exceed your income. Voigtkampff assessed the problem accurately: INADEQUATE INCOME. Example: Your rent is $800, food/clothing are $600, car expenses are $300, and misc. is another $200. Can we agree that we have $1,900 in expenses? (not nearly complete, but for this example's sake.) Let's say the take home pay is $1,000. Obviously that won't cover the expenses. Which book will solve our problem? I don't know of one, and as a LONG time user, I know that Quicken won't help either. Here are some (real life) options: Forget the rent! Find a bridge to live under. We're still $100 short. OK, who really needs a car? Let's just find a bridge close to work. So there, problem solved. Well, there's at least one new problem. I once had a client who ended up in this situation and the CPS wouldn't allow her daughter to stay with her due to "unsuitable" living conditions. She wasn't even under a bridge, but in an old cabin w/o kitchen. I want to make it VERY clear here that there is absolutely NO basis to assume that ALL people whose expenses exceed the income are just living above their means and all they need to do is brown bag lunches and read a book. Concerning the comments on the oh so wonderful economy: That's all a whole lot more bull. New Mexico's unemployment rate just last month finally fell below 7% (according to Albuquerque AM 770 news.) That means that nearly 7 out of 100 people in New Mexico are looking for work and are REGISTERED with the Unemployment Office. HOWEVER, this figure does NOT include the people who no longer qualify for benefits. It doesn't include those who gave up, became criminals, transients, or blew their brains out. Even in very hot markets as the San Francisco Bay Area you got to have the right skills. No matter HOW many programmers they need, if you're not a programmer, they won't hire you. In Silicon Valley are a ton of real well paying sales jobs. They all require "salesmenship," driving a very nice car, nice clothes, taking prospective customers to lunch/dinner, etc. etc. There are many areas with very few employment opportunities other than flipping burgers and pumping gas. You don't believe it? If anyone would like to go and visit some of these DEPRESSED areas and the low rent neighborhoods and bridges where "those" people live, I'll be happy to take you on a tour. I know lots of qualifying places in the Bay Area as well as the South West, but I can't guarantee your safety. And last time I checked, the booming areas featured OUTRAGEOUS rents, requiring GOOD credit, etc. etc. You don't just go there with no money and all your problems are solved. I don't know much about "Anonymous," they have three kids and here is the essence of her posting: "Needless to say, we were almost mentally broken. Well, we simply sat and drooled for about 2 years. We couldn't believe we'd fallen so low. Then we made more skiddish attempts to get it back. Failed miserably each time. My husband doesn't even try anymore. He was eventually laid off from his job and was out of work for two months. I kept food on the table (my mother does expect us to pay rent and utilities and buy our own food) by getting a temporary job. He eventually found another job that he's been on for a year now, but it's killing him. He works mad hours for pocket change. AND we're down to one car that shakes and rattles so badly, we're sure it's going to die any day now. Our marriage is hanging by a thread because we can't agree on anything and we haven't made ANY progress since moving in here." There are MANY things they need (mentally, etc.) but it all comes down to MONEY. Since nobody here asked for her address to send them money, I'm back to recommending a separation and welfare. The separation because you can't get welfare when you're working. The husband could then SAVE some money, they could read books, budget, and plan, and if all goes well they could eventually *AFFORD* a fresh start.
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| | Thursday, February 24, 2000 - 01:48 am Christine, i agree on the economy points--it isn't as rosy as the news media makes it and i lived through it taking two years to find a decent livable wage. I wish there was a way to identify comments that when written could be labeled as fascetious or sarcastic. On to the welfare point...thanks to the new laws, can you still get welfare for a decent time or do you only get it for a limited time and then off to work? I think each state might be different. It is an option that has to be explored though and a good idea for a start. I still think we need some professional counseling to help with the depression. There may be some religious organizations that can help or have access to low cost professionals. For food, let's try the food banks. Maybe if we all put our thoughts and ideas together we can create a survival 101 manual for these people and others out there.
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| | Thursday, February 24, 2000 - 10:37 am Hi to everyone who responded to this thread. I was really pleased to see that it got so many responses. For some reason, I really thought people would read my post and think me hopeless and just move on to the next topic. Well, after posting my post, I got a call about a job and I went, this morning, for the interview. Here's hoping I get that call! So that you all know, my oldest son is better now. Thanks to my home teaching and his own hard work and determination, he's a straight A student now in the 3rd grade. I'm very proud of him. My daughter is 5 and wants to attend dance classes. Needless to say, we haven't been able to send her yet. Maybe one day. My youngest is 3. Smart as a whip and talking better than most adults. We're proud of him too. I have considered welfare because my husband doesn't make a whole lot, but I haven't thought of it for some time. Maybe we're making a mistake, but my husband and I thought that what we really needed is to get me working full-time so we could start to save and he feels that, since the bulk of the bills were in his name, his credit problems should be resolved first. We can't do both at the same time. So my student loan hasn't been paid on at all in some time. Unless you want to count the times they took the income tax refunds from the past temp jobs I've had. I'm not sure if my husband's insurance covers counseling, but I will ask him about it. I think we both need to talk to someone, for our mental health as well as our marriage problems. We don't get along well with my mother. Particularly me. She's very hard and treats me like a child and says whatever she likes, no matter how it makes me feel. Sometimes I think getting out of here is the first thing we need to do because my mother helps to put the premature gray on my head. But, as you all know, apartment complexes wants credit and lots of it. Good credit. Not even the more afforable places have accepted us. So here we sit. We have been able to save twice before and twice we've had to dip into that money for emergencies. The first was when my daughter got sick and my husband wasn't working so we had no insurance. The second time is when a 13 year old girl, driving her sister's car, crashed into our car, parked on the side of the street. We had to have the car patched up as much as possible, because we had no insurance and the girl's parents were as poor if not more poor than we were. LOL! I almost sounds funny, doesn't it?? Well, anyway, right now, we're starting over and we have very little saved. I guess what I wanted to ask before was is it even wise to try and get a car and an apartment while you're in the middle of trying to fix your credit? I mean, it's not like we're doing it to show off. We really need a car and we really need a place to stay. Any suggestions on that? And if it is the right thing to do, how does someone with our credit history find an apartment? It seems so impossible.
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| | Thursday, February 24, 2000 - 11:02 am Don't forget food stamps. Even if you don't qualify for welfare, you can qualify for them. Every little bit helps.
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| | Friday, February 25, 2000 - 06:20 pm I'm by no means an expert on welfare, all I know is that every State does their own thing and laws recently changed. I really think you should explore the welfare/food stamps option. Not as PERMANENT welfare mom, but to get you out of your mother's house and to put food on the table while you reorganize. There are programs that guarantee your rent payment while on welfare, making you a desireable tenant, your credit won't be needed. Last year in Washington I met a woman who got brand new tires on her car, paid for by some "back to work" program. And she had just moved into a very nice apartment, most likely through the same program. I'd also expect you to get some help with child care if you're on welfare and they (obviously) want you to get back to work. At the risk of sounding like Dr. Laura, I think your kids need you at home. Maybe you could get a part-time job or even better, work out of your home? How computer literate are you? There are many opportunities. I may need to hire somebody to delete the Bielak spam while I'm on the road ... I also know several people who make some good money with auctions. Some sell stuff they get free or for next to nothing. Others are experts on some product and they make their buck by finding and acquiring deals, and then immediately reselling. They never even deal with shipping. It takes time to LEARN how it works, and it helps to have a reliable internet connection and computer equipment. But I recently read about homeless people in LA making money on the net from the library. Not a lot of money, but a little is better than none. And of course you have to be able to concentrate on what you're doing without a million worries and thoughts about suicide. For counseling you might want to check into religious organizations as Senator suggested, and again, I'm hoping that as part of the welfare program REAL counseling services (not just a prozac prescription) will be available. DO make a list of priorities, which I think should be the apartment and the car. Your credit rating will take quite a while to improve, it's a long term project. If you got your credit reports, I'll be happy to take a look at them and I'll let you know privately what you should do. No charge. E-mail me at admin@bayhouse.com if you're interested. Christine
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| | Saturday, February 26, 2000 - 07:12 am Anonymous said: >But, as you all know, apartment complexes wants >credit and lots of it. Good credit. Not even the >more afforable places have accepted us. So here >we sit. Believe me, I know how you feel. Because of the debt from my previous marriage, I couldn't even get into *low income housing* (which left me completely boggled, because these places I was trying to get in to were supposed to be there to help people like me - who are/were trying to get back on their feet). Left me feeling like the only place left for me was on the street under some bridge somewhere. Fortunately, I had a couple of really good friends (one of whom I'm now married to) who were willing to help, and at the least give me a place to stay. The only way I ended up with an apartment "of my own" was a former employer of mine (whom I was working for at the time) had bought a lot of land, and a trailer, which was less than his monthly apartment rent, but his complex wouldn't let him out of his lease. He added me and my then-boyfriend-now-husband as "occupants" (with the apt. complex's blessing, and our thanks), and we became responsible for the rent. Luckily, the apartment was across the street from where I worked, so it really worked out well. I wish I could offer some more support, or help. I do have to agree with Christine, in that I think your children probably need you at home; with one exception: if being at home ends up being more stressful than going to work. Being a SAHM, myself, I fully understand the stress of the job - and I only have 1 child (2 if you include my husband); I can't imagine having to go to an outside job, and then come home and still have to do all the stuff I already run out of time to do. It takes time. I know that's probably not what you want to hear, and it's never easy. The one thing that's always kept me going is the knowledge that there is always someone else who has it worse off then I do; that in the end, things WILL work out, somehow. My husband and I have been VERY lucky - almost everything we have now, was given to us, or sold to us at some ridiculously low cost, by family or friends. Our car was purchased used from a former co-worker of Kenn's who a) moved to Spain and b) was willing to do payments over a period of 4 months. It means we basically pay our rent twice a month, BUT come April, the car is ours, permanently (nice car too; runs well, for having as many miles on it as it does). It will work out, but not if you're not there. Just remember how much your children need you, if nothing else. I remember when I was pregnant w/my daughter, getting threatening calls from creditors, wondering how on earth I was going to get by. Medicaid and WIC helped immensely. Speaking of WIC, you may want to check into that. It may not provide much, but you can at least get milk, eggs, and cheese (and peanut butter, some cereals, etc). They will also have resources for dentists, doctors, etc. Hang in there. Things WILL get better.
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