     David Temkin (Dtemkin) | Monday, September 04, 2000 - 06:54 am 
If I leave an account out of chap7 (specifically, a credit card that I *REALLY* need for my day-to-day business (I rent cars quite often for my job), how would I get caught? I know I'm asking for some illegal info here, but help me out :-). Should I include it and then plead to keep it at the creditors meeting? I'm just afraid that the card company might cancel me if I include them. I'm not sure (yet) on their policy for reaffirmation.
The card company, before you all scream, is yes, Providian (Aria). It's all I could get, and they've been good to me thus far.
Thanks,
-Dave |
| jonjon (Johnny) | Monday, September 04, 2000 - 12:30 pm
Have you ever been late with your payments? How long has the account been opened? These are just a couple of questions that the card company will consider. I think it could go either way. If you were caught, it could really screw things up for the Chapter 7. As I understand it, when you file Chapter 7 you are filing on everything you have, then you reaffirm on the accounts you choose. I would think that Providian would want to reaffirm and probably would do so. Whether or not they can cancel your card or lower your limit after the discharge; would be a better question for your attorney. There are secured cards out there that you can get 1 day after discharge, I even got a flyer in the mail that said I could get a mastercard even before my discharge. Again this is another question for your attorney, but there may be some consequences (legal) to purposely leaving out an account in bankruptsy. |
| jonjon (Johnny) | Monday, September 04, 2000 - 12:41 pm
Sorry for the second response, but I though of one additional thing to add. Most credit card companies, especially Providian, pull periodic credit reports to assure that you are as credit worthy now as you were when they issued you the card. Some companies adjust your interest rate either higher or lower, and they may even go so far as to reduce your credit limit. If you filed Chapter 7 and did not tell them about it, they may cancel your card when they pull the report. |
| Michael Bardelli (Bull22) | Monday, September 04, 2000 - 12:42 pm
Bankruptcy is a court proceeding. When the judge asks you if all of your account information has been provided and you say, "yes, your honor, this is all my accounts." You are committing perjury. This is a FELONY offense. If you get caught, you face a LONG time in PRISON and/or a VERY large FINE. I am assuming that since you are filing chapter 7, you probably couldn't afford to have to pay a large fine. At the creditors meeting, they will have a copy of your credit report and the account will show up on it. They will ask you, "what is this providian account?" It is all downhill from there. Play the game within the rules of the law and you will be okay in the long run. Trying to be tricky will leave you worse off then you started. Most card companies that you have a good history with will not cut you off for filing bankruptcy if you reaffirm with them. Like the above lady/gentleman said, there are plenty of secured cards with which you can acquire after the discharge. Best of luck.
Mike |
| Amy Duncan (Amydd) | Monday, September 04, 2000 - 10:17 pm
I don't know how true this is, but when I went through my c7 I was told that certain creditors (I know Citibank and maybe the other was Sears) will actually pull your report, and if you have paid off accounts, contact them and advise them you are filing c7. They also compare balances and accounts to your filing, supposedly searching for discrepancies so that you would lose your case. I found this really hard to believe, until I went to buy a refrigerator on a credit card that I had paid off well before my filing. I was rejected and told that my account had been closed due to my recent b/k. I asked them how they knew about it since they were not included in it and she said that often they are notified by other creditors. Anyway, I would just reaffirm to be safe. |
| David Temkin (Dtemkin) | Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 03:00 am
Thanks. I'll definitely give them a call. I also have to call my credit union - I've recently discovered my personal loan with them is cross-collateral'ed with my auto loan, so my understanding is that if I want to keep the car, I have to keep the personal loan.
-Dave |
| David Temkin (Dtemkin) | Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 03:09 am
One other quick question relating to this:
When I reaff with a creditor, is it fair to ask for in the reaff contract for a clause such as "So long as I maintain a steady payment history for, say, 6 months after the bk, it is expected that such and such creditor will keep the account open as according to the terms of the original agreement"? or something like that... |
| Mitch (Voigtkampff) | Tuesday, September 05, 2000 - 07:49 am
I have never seen or heard of the trustees pulling a credit report at the creditor's meeting. Maybe that is just Florida though. But there would seem to be too many logistical difficulties. Aside from the expense and delay in getting a report, the time spent in reading it would not benefit the bnk estate. And there is usually no benefit to the trustee for looking for unscheduled creditors. That puts no money in the pocket of the trustee or the creditors. Assets and preference payments are far more important to a trustee.
The way that trustees normally find out about an omitted account is that they ask for cancelled checks to look for unusual deposits or payments, etc., and they see a payment to that creditor in the month prior to filing bnk. Sometimes the trustees even specifically ask if you paid off a credit card immediately before filing (so that it would have a zero balance, and therefore not be included).
As far as AM (account maintenance) and AR (account review) inquiries which reveal the bankruptcy filing to a creditor, even if they are not listed, I agree. But it seems that most creditors do not care if you did not list them. They seem to care more that you are still paying them despite your bankruptcy filing. If you were a sensible creditor, why would you care if the person filed bnk but kept paying you? A notable exception is AMEX.
And at least in the So District of Florida, people seem to lie about significant things and get away with it. It depresses me because I have tried to hold liars accountable and, even with undeniable proof of the multiple lies, nobody cares. I always recommend complete honesty in bnk. I turn away people who feel differently. But as a practical matter, I would not be concerned about felony charges for forgetting one creditor. A trustee recently complained to me that even the serious criminal offenses that they refer for investigation just get ignored. That being said, I would hate to be the exception to the rule, who ends up serving time over nothing. |
| Christine Baker (Admin) | Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 03:49 pm
Unfortunately I have to totally agree with Mitch. It depresses me too when I see the crooks making the big bucks, violating all kinds of laws while law "enforcement" does nothing.
I also agree that you don't want to be the exception and I'd list all debts. |
| David Temkin (Dtemkin) | Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 04:30 pm
Thanks Christine. I have decided to list Providian (for reasons I outlined in another post). I have decided to reaffirm with MBNA, even if it means carrying a $3000 balance. Can't really beat getting a CC directly out of bkrptcy with a $4500 limit ... especially since I need it for work.
-Dave |
| Mitch (Voigtkampff) | Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 07:18 am
Seems a shame to walk out of bnk owing $3,000. I have seen people inquire into filing bnk for significantly less. I had someone call once because they owed $1,000. Young people. I suspect that you are underestimating the ease with which one can get a brand new credit card post-discharge. I am not great with statistics, but a large newspaper in my area published an article, in 1997 I think, stating that 17% of people get brand new MAJOR UNSECURED cards within 30 days of discharge. Obviously the stats increased after 30 days. No guarantees. |
| Christine Baker (Admin) | Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 05:37 pm
David needs to read the affirmation agreement VERY carefully. I've heard that sometimes being just a day late can cause the account to be closed and that credit limits may be lowered. |
| EFRAIN VEGA (Vegae77) | Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 09:55 pm
HI, TO EVERYONE. MY QUESTION IS, I DEFAULT ON ONE OF MY CREDITOR CREDIT CARD. MY ACCOUNT WAS CLOSED AND PUT HAS CHARGEOFF ON MY CREDIT REPORT. BUT, KNOW I GOT A BILL FROM ANOTHER CREDITOR STATING THAT MY X-CREDITOR ACCOUNT BEEN TRANSFER TO THEM. THE NEW CREDITOR GAVE ME A KNEW ACCOUNT NUMBER AND THE SAME BALANCE. IS THIS LEGAL TO DO AND COULD THEY ALSO REPORT THE INFORMATION TO MY CREDIT REPORT EVEN THOUGHT IS THE SAME ACCOUNT HAS MY X-CREDITOR JUST WITH A DIFFERENT ACCOUNT NUMBER. THANK YOU |
| Christine Baker (Admin) | Thursday, September 21, 2000 - 05:14 pm
Please post that again in a NEW TOPIC and please do NOT use all CAPS.
Thanks, Christine |
